Conflict Resolution for People Pleasers

Lindsay Miller  0:23  
Hey there! This is Lindsey. Welcome to the Stress Nanny podcast. I'm so glad you're here to pick up some tools to help you lower your stress levels. Today we are going to talk conflict resolution. And I know for some of us conflict feels so uncomfortable, right like whether because we're people pleasers, or because we just like to get along with everyone or we're really understanding it can be challenging to engage with conflict, like moments of conflict. So Jerry Fu is my guest today. And he's a fantastic leader in this field. And it's because he needed to learn it himself. So he has a five step framework that he's going to share that's really, really great, and is so applicable in family life. We're going to share some examples and really get into it in the episode. So I'm so glad you're here. Have a great time listening. 

Welcome to The Stress Nanny podcast. I'm your host, Lindsay Miller, and I'm so glad you're here to take your stress levels down a few notches. This week's episode is brought to you by the Central calendar, which is a beautiful 18 by 24 wall calendar with fun accessories that makes it easy for families to get organized. The summer break calendar will take you from Labor Day to Memorial Day so you can see the whole summer break at a glance. You can find it exclusively at www.thecentralcalendar.com. I am so excited to introduce my guest today Jerry Fu. Jerry is a conflict resolution coach for Asian American leaders. He started coaching in 2017 to help other Asian American professionals deal with the challenges they encounter at work with their families and within themselves. Prior to starting his coaching business, Jerry worked as a pharmacist and began facilitating leadership workshops in 2012. Today, Jerry offers a range of coaching services, which includes individual group workshops and keynote presentations. In his free time Jerry enjoys travel, trying new restaurants and lots and lots of salsa dancing. Jerry, thanks so much for joining me. 

Jerry Fu  2:18  
I was so excited to be here. Yeah, I, you

Lindsay Miller  2:21  
and I had scheduled this podcast for a while back. And to be honest, at the time, I was like, I'm so glad I'm gonna have a conflict resolution guy on here because I am so I'm so ready to like implement your system. And so then when it had to get delayed, I was like, Oh, great, I'm gonna have to

Jerry Fu  2:40  
have to suffer through conflict for three months before I finally get the secrets of resolving this, I could have spared myself so much time and energy.

Lindsay Miller  2:47  
Exactly. So I've really been looking forward to this chat. As we get started, tell us a little bit about your story and kind of how you came to this point in your life where you're guiding people through conflict resolution.

Jerry Fu  2:59  
Yeah, you know, it starts growing up in a home where, you know, mom just wants to, you know, kids to enjoy their lives and not deal with adversity. And so the problem is those when, like, difficult conversation come up, right, or, you know, preferences start to, you know, disagree on things. And you're like, Okay, I how do we deal with this right now, your broom is not as clean as I'd like it to be like, it's like, well, it's not your room, right? And why do you can't just say these things. And so I saw conflict aversion model for me at a very early age, where it's just, you know, if the host was unhappy with the guests, and you know, but you just let him say if he didn't want to embarrass them, but they just secretly never invited him over again, right? It's just kind of and you're always afraid, like, that was always my paranoia, right? It's just like, Did I do something wrong? Like, they just didn't tell me right? And so you just got this paranoia going on. And so, you know, took this conflict diversion to college. And then you know, retail pharmacy work also not great, right? Where you're even if you try to stand your ground for something you strongly believe in, and they just go above your head and complain to your supervisor. And the supervisor just says, just like hit them, we can't lose their business, and you go home, wondering if you have a spine, right? And then, you know, then legitimate compliance problems come up. And then they're like, Jerry grow a pair. And I'm just like, I'm sorry, like, you know, I'm just so used to taking the path of least resistance, because I'm just like, I must be bad at this. And I'm just gonna run from it because I don't want to look incompetent at it, even though the struggle is what will make you stronger enough to actually handle conflict more effectively. And so it wasn't until I started getting into leadership positions, and I realized that you can't just avoid confrontation, even if you're unhappy with an employee, right? Because now I'm in trouble, like, my bottom line is hurting. And so you realize I gotta go through this, otherwise, it's not going to get better. And you know, long story short, yeah, I've dealt with the random assortment of, you know, grenades you gotta fall on like at one point as a church class. As director and second day on the job, my friends are like, hey, this new guy, he's sexual harassing women in the class, you gotta go confront it. And you just like, You didn't give me a manual, like, I need some fire. Yeah, just give me something, right. And then another time, I had to pick a roommate, you know, defaulted on his lease, and basically dared me to actually call the cops and get him out, you know, and it's like, oh, like, I hate having to not be a nice guy. But anything less than that is not working. Or, you know, and so, you realize quickly, you're like, Well, I can't change myself, necessarily. But I can change if I, if I'm struggling to change myself, maybe I change the system around me. So I don't default to my comforts, or default to this idea of, oh, I just want to be a nice guy and just want to get along. It's like, no, like, you're resentful. And it's impacting your own focus and your own ability to enjoy where you live, or you know, the relationships that you have. And so to give people a resource in order, so they can be honest without being disrespectful, and, you know, be able to put difficult topics on the table out in the open and, and fight a form of collaboration, so that they can actually go home with a sense of closure, or say, or even if they fail, they say, well, at least I got that off my chest, right? To give people say, Hey, it's okay to fail at this because no one starts off good at this. So, you know, all you always can do is get better. So that's some of the pinpoints and the peaks and valleys of the journey towards effective conflict resolution.

Lindsay Miller  6:31  
Yeah. Well, and what I'm loving hearing you say, and we touched on this a little bit before, it was like, it's not a one and done, right? Like, it's not like, and tomorrow, I'm gonna be 100% comfortable with conflict, right? Like, it's a journey that you just keep engaging with and getting better at, like you said, like, take taking steps forward, and like improving your ability and improving your resilience. And like, it's not a it's not like a yes or no, like, it's just like an engagement with the process and a willingness to improve the way that we manage conflict, right. Is that what I'm hearing?

Jerry Fu  7:04  
Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, before, right, and in this fixed mindset that I know, so it gets heard of a lot with Carol Dweck material, right before it's like, oh, like they're good at leadership. I'm not good at leadership, I'll never be good at leadership. They're good at conflict resolution, I'm not good at it. I'll never be good at it. And then instead of saying, Well, you know, what, how am I so certain that I'll never be good at it, but makes that belief so powerful. And it was such a stronghold in my mind to the point where I'm not willing to give myself permission that I could actually be good at something. And it took that mindset shift first, because we didn't give you techniques all day, right? You can read books, that's what I did. But until you believe that, you can actually be good at something. I think that's the start of it. Yeah,

Lindsay Miller  7:49  
no, I love that you framed it in that context, because we talk a lot about growth mindset here on the podcast, and how, like taking those small steps, and so yeah, if we just give ourselves that label right off the bat, like I'm not good at this. Instead, like I'm learning to manage conflict more skillfully, briefly, whatever, you know, courageously, whatever we want to say there. Um, what are some of the reasons that you think it is challenging for a lot of us to deal with conflict? Like, what are some of the reasons why we just have that like, Oh, please, no.

Jerry Fu  8:19  
Yeah, it's, it's, you know, we have a default for comfort, I believe, right? And it's just like, Oh, I just want things to be comfortable and easy and predictable. And ideally, those are those days are great, right? Everyone comes in on time gets along. Well, we communicate things. No one takes things like as a personal affront, and you're just able to just have simple conversations, we acknowledge each other, appreciate each other and move things forward. Whether it's personal, professional relationships, and that's great. And when you get into conflict, and you're just like, oh, I don't like it when people are upset with me, because it conflicts with my identity as a likable you know, you know, person, right, a reputable person. And so, yeah, and don't get me wrong, like I I'm a recovering approval addict, right? I don't like it when being put in situations where people are upset with me, or I'm upset with others. You know, I don't want to be mad at this person. I'm not an impatient person. But here I am. Just like this vitriol coming out of my mouth. Because for some reason, you know, it didn't quite get my latte, right, right at Starbucks. And it's like, dude, like, what? At what point did it get to this point, right, where I'm just like, just this tiny like, straw breaks the camel's back, because there's all this other underlying resentment that I didn't deal with. Right?

Lindsay Miller  9:30  
Yeah. And that's, that's such a good point to make, I think is that we feel like if we're recovering approval addicts, which I can really relate to, we feel like we're doing ourselves a service and other people a service by kind of keeping quiet but there is going to be the moment right when it all just kind of erupts, one of my psychologists in my early 20s. She would always give this analogy of like, it's kind of like trying to hold a beach ball underwater at some point. It's gonna popped up, you know, and you're like, oh, I can fight this thing for longer, you know, like, and then the next wave comes and you're like, Oh, wait. And yeah, like you said, like you said at the line at Starbucks where you're like, Oops. And so like we in those tiny moments when we choose to not work through conflict or stead, instead, try to just like shove it down, recognizing that there's going to be like a day of reckoning for for that, right?

Jerry Fu  10:29  
Yeah. Yeah. And you just find yourself getting mad at things. You realize that it's not the thing itself. It was this the dam of water that was building up before it and just happened to reach that tipping point. And then it all comes out?

Lindsay Miller  10:44  
Yeah, yeah. No, and that's, that's a good, I liked that. You talk about approval, and just the idea of being a likable, nice person. And I think especially, you know, there are a lot of listeners who are women, and the idea of like a woman being likable and nice, and, you know, teaching our children to be kind. And when we're in those settings, where there's a lot of value placed on the idea of kindness, being able to teach our kids how to be kind and assertive is like a really, it's an important skill, but one that I think a lot of us don't come by naturally.

Jerry Fu  11:20  
Mm hmm. Yeah. And so you know, as much as we don't condone some of the more painful things that some of us have dealt with, right at the same time. It's still, whether you like it or not, it's and it's an opportunity to grow stronger. And I remember Lewis Howes wrote in his School of Greatness book, you know, he said, You're only as strong as the adversity you deal with and, you know, that was, that was a tough truth to embrace, you know, when I read that. And so yeah, it's like, how to expect to get stronger, unless you actually, you know, take on appropriate challenges. There's no one's asking you to, like, run a marathon tomorrow, like, don't do this just to show off. But, you know, when adversity comes to your doorstep, you know, how will you handle it? You know, will you allow it to be an opportunity of growth and learning and, you know, staying humble, recognizing, hey, you know, what, I'm gonna have to let go of some beliefs that I that I really want to hang on to, but maybe there's something better on the other side, and it's something I'm dealing with myself, right. It's, I am simply just a couple miles down the road from the journey that everyone else is on, right. And it's just happy to share what Beretta found along the way is one bigger twin. But yeah, I mean, after practice what I preach, no one's gonna hire me.

Lindsay Miller  12:39  
Yeah, no, that's really powerful. And I keep writing down these different quotes that you're saying so many wisdom, like gems of wisdom, you're you're sharing with us. I love that you said you're only as strong as the adversity that you deal with. I mean, that's really humbling. Like, I'm not as strong as the adversity, I just kind of like shoved down.

Jerry Fu  13:01  
Oh, well, I mean, yeah, well, it's like when I deal with irate, you know, customers in the pharmacy or so. Right? And it's just like, well, let me just take the path of least resistance. And it's like, well, guess what, now you're enabling them. And you're not standing up for yourself, and you're not standing up for your license. And you know, you're bending rules, because you just don't like the stressor in front of you. And you feel like this is the only way to make me go away. And, you know, when you when you aren't able to accept no as an answer, or willing to give notice in the answer, right. That's, that's usually another factor in it. And so being able to say no, and have the specific reasons why. It's, it's powerful, because now it's like, okay, I don't have to take it personally. No, it's actually a great thing, because they are willing to close the door. So I can move on to the next one, whether it's like, you know, pitching to clients, or, you know, inviting a friend to lunch or things like that, and you realize that, no, doesn't mean No, permanently. No, just means that's right. And if they say, Okay, no, no, definitely, certainly. And like, just thank them for the clarification. And, you know, just move on, because I read something today on LinkedIn, where they talked about, you know, rejection is redirection, and that's okay. Like, no one says, you're failing, just because this door got close, like, now it's your opportunity to look for it.

Lindsay Miller  14:15  
Yeah, no, thanks for sharing that. That's such a powerful way to look at it from both like a professional standpoint and a family life. Because I think for kids a lot of times there's some things that, you know, we navigate No, and yes, a lot like when we have kids, right? Like, no, we're not going to do that, no, we're not gonna do this and to be able to cultivate a sense of balance and also help them like be able to be comfortable with know and know how to respond to know and then also, you know, just be able to have a conversation around No, and allow that to be a skill set that we, you know, empower our kids with when they're little such that like you're saying when they're older. It's not like oh, actually you're saying no with your behavior the whole time, but you know, ever said it with your words. So now I have to figure out how to say it with my words, right?

Jerry Fu  15:06  
I could give me the stories I know because my friends have their son just turned five. And it's like, when you tell him to do something, he has no problem saying no. But when you ask for something, you tell him that oh, the tantrums. Like, fun example, right? One year, he found his Halloween costume three days early. Oh, so excited. And his my friend and his wife are just like that to the same day we tell him he can't use it for another three days. Like that's not there. Like that's not a fight. We want to have like, we don't have that. And so at the same time, right, what kind of precedent Are you setting? You know? And the kids will push boundaries for sure. And it's up to you to enforce them. Right. I mean, I do it at work, right. Like, if I set these boundaries and enforce them. It won't take me seriously. Right? Yeah. So

Lindsay Miller  16:01  
yeah, I mean, I think it's an interesting journey. I would have been right with them. I would have been like, just wear the costume. Pretty much. No, we're like, yeah, now this is not I'm not gonna die on

Jerry Fu  16:12  
this. Is that the only one to die on? Yeah. So now I'm with you, where there's like, no, like candy before dinner. Okay, we're gonna say no, right? That was another fun one way. It's just like chocolate chips. And they're like, now you've had enough. Like, please. I'm friends. Like, now you've had enough today? Please? Oh, okay. Pick that vending machine a little harder, buddy. See how that goes? Right?

Lindsay Miller  16:38  
Well, I think it's such a dance, you know, in that relationship. And that's where I mean, if we can engage with presence in those conversations, I think there's so much we can do to build a resilience for conflict. Because I think sometimes we tend toward, you know, if kids kind of press and push and want, you know, keep asking, like you just described that such a great example. I think our emotions can escalate. And then maybe we're like, responding from a place of anger, which is not putting them in the most optimal place to learn, right? If like, we're getting like, no, and this is why No, no. And as much as saying no 16 times can be really tiring. Also allowing the conversation to just happen in a way that keeps their nervous system from going to that fight flight for you know, like us getting angry and, and being at a point where they're past where they can learn, like we can engage with conversation, hold a boundary, say like this, you know, depending on their age, like this is going to be something you navigate for the rest of your life, someone telling, you know, your response to that is really important thing to practice, know, and just letting them kind of sit with the no in a way that's patient open and neutral. Like, oh, how are you responding to that? What was there a more skillful response? And that's why I'm so excited today, because you're going to teach us your five steps, right? To respond skillfully to conflict, so we can share those with our kids practice them ourselves.

Jerry Fu  18:02  
Yeah, yeah, let's do it. Let's jump right in. So the five step kind of organic recipe, I'm happy to share source material, you know, there's a great book called difficult conversations, which is more on like, the more it feels, it's more of like the adult conflict professional like kind of thing. But it still can be relevant to how parents want to deal with kids. Right. And then same thing with quote, for conversations by Jeff and Laurie Ford. That's more about organizational conflict, specifically, the closure conversation when expectations are broken. How do you handle that? So those are two books that helped me humble inquiry by Edgar Schein and other one that's more about building relationships and multicultural aspects. Just having that sense of humility, which always helps resolve conflict more easily and effectively, really. But yeah, so in all that, there's five steps that I kind of basically use for my own benefit as well. Right? This is a recipe I cook for myself all the time. Step one is to imagine what success would sound like, right? Success. Keep in mind, it may not be restoring the relationship to 100%. Maybe you find the truth to say, okay, you know, clearly we don't agree on like, how clean your room is, you know, what can we what kind of truce can we reach so that I'm not letting my preferences get in the way of how clean I think your room should be? Right? Or you have to stop it altogether? Just like Okay, nope, like we've tried, you know, and parents, like be encouraged. If you aren't failing parents, you're probably not trying hard enough. So be encouraged. Like the I think A for effort is more is the most important thing you can celebrate. So because I think there's that myth of just like, oh, I have to be the perfect parents and you know, I handled every situation with grace and you know, I didn't leave any permanent scars on my kids. You just like no, you're gonna lose your kids. Like, the key is just to make sure you wound them the right way and that there's no lasting emotional scarring, right that they're like, oh, like why didn't my dad just love me more right kind of thing.

Lindsay Miller  19:54  
I think to in the process of raising kids being able to be open about like not not expect thing that you have done it perfectly right like having having these conversations like I'm, I'm learning how to resolve conflict more skillfully, but I'm just going to be open that I'm, I'm making my way through this to, you know, and letting kids know like, there's going to there's going to be stuff like I'm not expecting me to parent perfectly. So you shouldn't expect that this has been a perfect experience either.

Jerry Fu  20:19  
Yeah, I mean, you know, we're just asking you to get 10% better, right? Yeah. Can you get 10%? Better? No. How about five? Right? Just give him one. Right. Just like any No, I'm it's like, celebrate progress. Some is always better than when it comes to progress. Yeah. So I mean, interrupt Johnston. We're good. No, no, like, I love it when you know, you're excited enough to jump in and then contribute. So it's great. So yeah, so right. What level is this? And just to say, Hey, okay, let me I have an idea of what successful sounds like because right now you open the possibility that, hey, you know what, this might actually go, Well, maybe just say, Hey, do you mind cleaning the dishes that you left in the sink? Yesterday? It's there. They're looking kind of crusty. They're like, Oh, yeah, sorry about that, you know, busy, you know, busy night, you know, I was just overwhelmed. It's like, okay, can you take care of that now? You know, as I sleep, right? But maybe it could be that easy. You just don't know, right? We're just dying to 1000 desperate, just like, ah, you know, it's just gonna push back and say like, well, you know, why are you bringing this up? I thought about, like, no, wait, you know, maybe you can do that. Maybe realistically, no, but maybe, right. And then step two is what a lot of people love hearing is fantastic. Is of courage. Right? Just like 10 seconds of courage. Okay? You don't have to be Superman. Just be Superman for 10 seconds, right? Just say, Okay, let me pick up the phone. All right, get it? All right. Hey, can we you know, there's no good time to talk. All right, great. You know, let me just send that email. Can't take that back. Right. Let me send that text can't take that back. And for conflict averse people like me, right, this step is huge, because you're just like, let me just tip this boulder just enough to set it in motion. lock the gate behind me. So I can't backtrack. Because that's what we want to do. We're like, oh, like, nevermind a false alarm. Like no, like, clearly, you need to be angry enough to do something about it. You took that emotion and now you guard against the part of me that's mostly just be like, oh, like, let me just let me just stay comfortable, right? We all have that. Apparently, like everyone's subconscious is terrible. Like, there's prejudices and other things, you know, if there's just like, how's it? How did it all let enough there? We don't know. Another conversation for another day. So yeah, like I said, just set it in motion. And then you're like, Oh, hey, I better I better find my way forward. Because I've set this in motion can't take it back. So step three is scripted critical moves, right? Let me catalog not in my head on paper, everything I need to, you know, account for, right? For some people, they like to do this stuff before. During the 10 seconds, no one says This is set in stone. So other you set it in motion, say okay, let's set a date for you know, let's talk about this in a week. Prepare until then, great. Otherwise, you know, let me just prepare a quick script before I launched the launch the 10 seconds, right. So yeah, think about the things you want to address. Think about the possible pushback you might get. And then think about how you want to respond to that pushback. So let me just organize my thoughts. Get it in a nice flow. And then Okay, here we go. Let me also isolate the most important things in case there's a lot of stuff, right? Because you may or may not have a lot of time. Step four. Rehearse those right roleplay with a friend, hey, can you be that boss that I'm afraid to ask for a raise for? Right? Can I Can you do that for me? And you play my teenage son who won't clean his room whenever I asked him, like, do his homework, you know, or seems to just be bored with life? Like how do I handle this? And then yeah, check your posture, check your body language and your tone, right? Are you able to say things do you get tripped over your words, because now's the time you want to plan all that out. So you're not freezing up in the moment, right, the training Dojo before you fight on the street. And then step five, you got to do it, right, follow through, you're prepared. You didn't just load the gun not to shoot it, you didn't, you know, come all this way, just to back off and say, You know what, maybe I don't want to make the jump. It's like, no, you've come too far, you know, the cost of inaction versus trying and failing. And, you know, follow through trust that closure is better than comfort. That's, you know, slogan I use a lot. And so, yeah, you know, this when it comes to kids, right, as we joked about before they call clean your room, no. I need some help. Right? It's just they won't just, you know, subject themselves to my authority. How ungrateful Okay, now get don't get into the fear and the shaming and the obligation that says the best I can to help either. So, you know, an alternative to that, right is to say, hey, look, you know, you could like two situations would come up in my head, right? One is just to say, hey, look, if you're not going to clean your room, you know, I might clean your room for you. And understand that if you want me to clean your room, I may not, you know, retain all the important things that you that are important to you, right, because I don't know any better. Right? If you Don't worry if you decide you don't want to put in the effort, but you're willing to trust me with my efforts to try to help you. Why don't you take some initiative? Right? That was always the one situation, I thought that'd be funny. The other is to say, hey, look, you know, your rooms, I think, you know, if you need a little help, let's, you know, can we clean this together? Right? Make it a collaborative effort and just say, hey, why don't we take like 15 minutes and clean up the room a little bit, you show me? You know, what's important to you? And, you know, show me how you liked things. And then, you know, make some progress. And maybe that's the compromise, right? Kind of, like we said, what was what was success sound like? Maybe it's just, hey, let's work on this together. Right? Maybe just for a little bit, shrink the change? Hey, just let's just play together for like, 10 to 15 minutes. Can we do that? Yeah. Things like that. Yeah.

Lindsay Miller  25:41  
Oh, those are so great. Okay, first of all, those five steps seem like magic, because I thought it was going to be really complicated in involved. But like you laying it out, like that made it memorable, right? Like, okay, figure out what the resolution looks like. So we're putting our brain in the, like, potential potentiality mode, like imagination. And then that like just the break reading gaze at 10 seconds. But this scripting your critical moves, that seems like the piece, especially in parenting, that can be sometimes hard one, because we're in the thick of whatever moment we're in, right? And we're not sure like, what the critical moves are, why we're asking for the thing, or what the key points are, we just like are frazzled. It's a long day, we're tired. And we need the laundry put away, you know,

Jerry Fu  26:25  
can you just do this? Because I asked you to?

Lindsay Miller  26:28  
Yeah. And so I love like, you know, the examples that you gave were great. Because in the moments when our inclination is just to say, do it because of the shirt show that we can just spend a couple of seconds again, this mindfulness idea, right of like, knowing what's going on inside of you, knowing what's going on outside of you, and making a choice on purpose, like, take that minute to breathe, and be like, why is it important for the laundry to get put away, you know, and like list off, so in my house, laundry baskets tend to end up in one room of our house, and all my laundry baskets will be in that room. And I will not have the laundry baskets to do additional laundry and less my child's heart. She's amazing in a lot of things. And laundry doesn't hit the top of her priority list, like very often. And so we'll I'll say, you know, okay, here are because I've been like, please put the laundry away, please. Like, I need you to put your like I need you to like, and I'm usually pretty mellow and low key about it. And I'm really patient person. And so I'll say, okay, here are a few important reasons. If I'm losing this model, right? Like, this is what I would say, right? Here are a few important reasons that I need you to put that like your laundry needs to get put away one, it's going to get way more wrinkled, if it sits in a basket for a long time. And someone's going to have to deal with that, too. I have additional laundry, some of it yours that needs a basket, and is like there's no baskets available. Three, you are eventually at some point in your life, probably going to live with another person either in college, you know, in America, whatever, wherever life finds you, there's probably going to be a point at which someone is going to be around you who gets a little frustrated about laundry laying around. And while that moment is not right now, preparing for that moment, was really valuable. And then for like, if you just kicked your laundry basket for the third time today, it's probably a safety hazard at this point. And we always tried to like throw in a little humor, but ya know, humor can always, it's probably time for you to like, clear up the two laundry baskets on the floor. I mean, is that would that be like would those be like scripting my critical moves? Or did I miss anything?

Jerry Fu  28:39  
Wow, that's great. That's perfect, right? And you could say, and you can ask them, right? Just come with open hands or just say, hey, here are the reasons for my stance, here are the benefits that come from it. Do you like these benefits? Like okay, you know, what are you willing to do to support these benefits if we agree on these benefits? Right? And what do you don't like? Okay, like, Okay, I don't like this. I don't think this is fair. And out of that say, Well, you know, if you were me, how would you? You know, how would you change these things? Right? Like, if you were in charge of this house, how would you run things?

Lindsay Miller  29:13  
That's a good one. Yeah. This how would you change it?

Jerry Fu  29:17  
Yeah. So yeah, there's a coach with a website called say, skillfully.com. And I'm happy to make a free plug for her because she just has like these little snippets of videos and you're like, I can articulate that.

Lindsay Miller  29:32  
Say it skillfully. I love that. Well, and those are such great. Your phrasing was amazing. Because I think that sometimes again, in the heat of the moment, when it's like the fifth time you've asked someone to do something and I recognize like some kids do their own laundry. So there's probably people listening who are like, Why are you still doing our laundry, but in our house like it's, I do, I do most of the laundry and we all team up in different ways about doing the laundry but like, generally I'm doing encourager of putting laundry away. That's my role. Yeah. So I think that what you said, like, what are the benefits and make asking for reflection? Like, what? What are the benefits of you putting your laundry away, and then letting her just reflect on it and say, like, Oh, I know where my clothes are, because we can't count the conversations we have where, again, I love her to pieces. So this isn't coming across as like a tirade, I hope. But like the number of conversations we have, where she's like, I don't have any more clean. And I'm like in your laundry basket. No, I didn't know that was there. Oh, I didn't know I had another one in your room. Oh, I didn't know. Like, you know, and so the benefits of you putting your laundry away? Are you knowing what clothing you have available to wear? Right? Like, yeah, then if it's wrinkled, yeah, yeah. And then when I like try to take it out of the dryer, and like shake it out. This may sound excessive to some people, but I don't really love ironing. So I like try to get out of the dryer as

Jerry Fu  30:55  
quick as possible. Just save yourself some iron.

Lindsay Miller  30:59  
And like if it sits in your basket that you know. But yeah, so benefits being Yeah, other clothes are aren't wrinkled, you have you know which clothing you have available, you can prep ahead of time for like practices and games because you can pack your bag because your stuff is where it's supposed to be. You're not tripping over it. So your toes are in much better condition. I mean, it seems like that mindset would go a long way to both in terms of just like everyone getting clarity on why why you keep Why do you keep harping on me about my laundry like, well, these are the benefits maybe we don't talk about all the time putting your laundry away, but let's get them out on the table. So we can all just like address it. I love that.

Jerry Fu  31:43  
Yeah, I mean, you could do you think I'm just here to just like, like, mess up your routine, have fun and like to friends time with friends? It's like no, like, I've like what is my role is your parents to equip you for real life later? What is a good skill that you will need for handling life later? staying organized? Right, and it's not to sounds overly condescending? Because I like to do that when I'm just like beating up on a straw man. Right. But it's just like, yeah, it's not my kids. So it's different.

Lindsay Miller  32:12  
Yeah, no, I can appreciate that. Like, no, yeah, that you you didn't mean it, you would have drill. It's like someone's listening. They wouldn't deliver it in a condescending way. But you're just preventing it for fun. Yeah. But I think like, that's a good, yeah, a good way to do it. And just like, here's like, you're saying, Here's my perspective. Here's your perspective. Now, how can people think through because that stage or step also included the possible pushback? So in mindfulness, I talk a lot about like an empathy flashlight, and we shine our empathy flashlight on the other person to see kind of what might be going on for them? Would we use that kind of a tool to figure out potential push back? Or how could someone kind of think that piece through because I could see that being one of the things that could trigger you to go back into the like, just because I said, so. You

Jerry Fu  32:58  
know, I mean, I think I think it's helpful just to stretch yourself just for a little bit. But at the end of the day, you just have to kind of anticipate it's like one of the one of the better tips I read from like a book called it's your ship and management techniques is, as you know, that Captain every shop is like, think like your boss, right? It's just what does your boss need? What is your what is his tendencies? How do you continue to support them? Because the sooner you think, like your boss, and then you get promoted, and you're like, oh, wow, I already know how to be a boss, because I was thinking about it the whole time. Right? And so same thing with the kids. Like, it's almost fun to regress a little bit, just say, Well, you know, my mom came in and told me to clean my room, how would I respond? So I'm gonna say, I'm gonna say no, God, mom, like, you know. And so yeah, the easiest thing is just to say, they're probably just gonna say no, right? Like, you know, it's just to say, okay, hey, I need you to clean your room. No, okay. All right. So how will you respond, right? Do add, say, Okay, now you can the empathy flashlight will probably help right to say, Okay, why do you think like, kid is going to say no, or they just added the fine stage where it's just, they're gonna say no to everything, I just can't take him personally, or the is like our relationship, but not in a good state right now. And they're just, there's more rebellion, because there is no relationship, you know, with behind the rules, like what's going on? Right? And so one side tip we like to say is, if you're lacking courage, just use curiosity instead, right? Because now, you're not like, Oh, I gotta take this head on, you can just kind of shift to the side, right a little bit and just say, Well, let me just lean a little closer. What's really going on here? Right? Hey, you know, I've noticed that I've asked you to clean your room several times, but you still haven't done it can you know, can I may ask for the reasons why you know, this, you know, the request hasn't been honored yet. You know, that it was a something I said or how I said it, you know, what's going on? And now right, they're not like, Oh, like this uncomfortable probe is like, you know, doing things you can just say, Look, I'm I'm really just trying to have compassion for your situation. Try to understand appreciate what's going on here. Ken, can you help me out?

Lindsay Miller  34:54  
Yeah. Yes, I love that so much because Is it really does speak to the number of assumptions that we can make both like personally in conflict and also in family life. You know, those moments when there is conflict, like we can assume it's because of a certain thing, and I love the ones who touched on like, we're doubting our parenting or like, we have a rocky relationship, or they're just in the developmental stage that you know, and we can attribute a lot of things, maybe wrongly, to, you know, different factors. And I love the idea just getting curious to me, like a helped me understand because, yeah, there have been, you know, around the laundry conversation, I'll, I don't think I phrased it quite like that, which I'm going to now. But um, you know, she'll be like, Well, Mom, I was trying to get my homework done. And I had this project and test coming up. And like, by the time I got home from soccer and practice violin, I figured it was most important for me to do my homework and the laundry could wait. And I was like, you know, like, and I'm a big proponent of getting to bed, so I'm never going to tell her to put away her. I mean, I don't know, I'll put it away if it means she's gonna lose sleep, right? And so I don't, I don't say like, you stay up and put your laundry away, right? I'm like, okay, tomorrow's tomorrow's good enough. And so in those moments, when she's articulating it, I'm just like, frustrated, because I need a laundry basket. And I probably just need to buy another laundry basket, maybe what this is telling me but

Jerry Fu  36:21  
yes, and no. I mean, you just might be enabling them at that point. He's just like, oh, we just do more capacity? It's like, yes or no.

Lindsay Miller  36:28  
Oh, but I think like having the conversation around it that just includes those factors. And then also, like, letting my yet been able to process my frustration in the context of the exchange, and not because I think what happens for me is because I'm a little more conflict averse, I, I'm frustrated that we're having a conflict. I'm frustrating, you're not putting your laundry because I don't like conflict. And I don't want to have to tell you again to do it. I don't want to escalate this to conflict. And so that for me will add like a little snowball to the frustration because I'm like hedging against the conflict.

Jerry Fu  37:04  
Yeah, that's hard. Yeah. I'm with you. Because, yeah, you're just like, Why can't she just do her things? And you know, like, she has 24 hours in the day, clearly, there's something I'm, you know, I'm wait to build on what you said, right? It's assumptions aren't bad. Let's tell people this for sure. Right? Because your mind wants to fill in gaps in whatever story, right? And so you're going to fill it in with information that appeals to you whether it's accurate or not. Right. Well, it is. I mean, that's, that's what happened to me. I've been burned several times, because I just didn't give the benefit of the doubt. Right? Like, you know, simple example, right? There was, there was a girl I liked, you know, she wished she seemed to be interested. I got her number and then I tried calling her a couple of times it goes to voicemail. I'm just like, okay, you know, what, you know, clearly not interested doubt about. And then later, she's just like, hey, sorry about that, like, you know, I was I was tied up my phone had problems. I tried texting you but my texting was blocked on my phone. And so like, I wouldn't have gotten anything. So between technological problems, and you know, me, not willing to explore her circumstances a little more, and I just me being impatient. Now, she's definitely not going to go out with a guy who's like, you know, like, he's already made up in his mind that you know, that this is set up to fail. I shouldn't have done it. Right. And that's a whole nother, that's a whole nother episode of things. But, but that's the idea, right? And to realize, hey, you know what, yeah, maybe occasionally, there are times if it's just like, they were just being nice to give me the number, but they weren't that interested. Okay. That's one story. You can't project you can't afford to project what you can project on the other every situation. But How helpful is that? Right? And so for me to kind of, you know, give the benefit of doubt. There's times, you know, I may not hear back from someone for two months or something like that when I text them now with dating stuff, because that should be more responsive. But, you know, there's times that just like, Oh, hey, yeah, sorry, life's been super busy and out of that, and just like, Oh, I'm so glad I just didn't give time to think about how offended I was that you didn't respond to me within the next three seconds, right.

Lindsay Miller  39:03  
Yeah, no. And that's, that's such a huge takeaway that like kind of examining assumptions, and like you said, if it's a skillful assumption, or one that makes sense in the moment, go with it. If not, like, lend yourself the opportunity to dive into curiosity so that you can really know what's going on. Yeah. Oh, Jerry. This is so many gems in this episode. I'm so excited to listen to it again, and take more notes than what I already just took. So I can be more skillful in my conflict resolution. Before we close, can I ask you three questions? Of course. Okay. What is your views are a little lighter than some of the topics we've been covering. So just bringing it up a little bit? What is your what is your favorite food?

Jerry Fu  39:49  
Oh, man, I'm sick. There's something I just look forward to. This while in cold weather, like a giant bowl of Vietnamese Ha like the soup with, you know? Yes. Yeah.

Lindsay Miller  40:05  
Yeah, not that I have to agree with your favorite food, but I

Jerry Fu  40:10  
do like it. Yeah. Your favorite but I'm just happy like it. Yeah.

Lindsay Miller  40:14  
And then what is your favorite way to relax?

Jerry Fu  40:17  
Oh man to relax, honestly, just give me a nice book and just, you know, just uninterrupted time, let me just turn off my phone or silence it put it like downstairs so I'm not compulsively checking it. But yeah, just a nice book, just read and, and maybe I'm in a park and I'm just reading things and people watching, I think that's a great way to unwind.

Lindsay Miller  40:41  
Love it. And then a funny childhood story or memory.

Jerry Fu  40:49  
Initially, I struggled to share, I struggled with it. That's an example came to mind, but I think it's the best one. There was a point when I played violin and in elementary school, and they had us line up to do a recital at school. And I was in the back, like playing a company first song. And at one point, this is like fourth grade, like I just dropped my bow. It's just like, and I just pick it back up. And what makes it hilarious is that the the musical director who was playing accompany piano, like saw me like I was kind of in his line of sight. And like, he starts laughing like nearly hits his head, like just laughing at the fact that I just like, Oops. Oh, god, yeah. And, you know, thankfully enough time has passed for I can laugh about it, just like I just wanted, like, I wish the Earth would just swallow me at

Lindsay Miller  41:44  
all. And I know some of those childhood ones. Like you remember those beep?

Jerry Fu  41:52  
Oh, yeah. Now those are to see people be able to forgive themselves. And the reframe is, you know what you realize now everybody has them and you're like, oh, I don't have to be so. Like, think ashamed of like, what happened? Just like no, we all dealt with stuff, right? Like some people with the beds, some people, you know, does, you know, awkward encounters with the teacher or? Yeah, and all sorts of weird stories and you realize, wow, like, how in the world did you get through that? Like, you know, it's okay. Like, we all have our Yeah, we're all kids like everyone. If you didn't have those stories? My guess is that you either you know, a bubble or sis not realistic. Yeah,

Lindsay Miller  42:30  
yeah. Yeah. No, it's true. There's so many so many, so many different ways to grow up and so many moments and growing up that can really be Yeah, just memorable. Formative. And also funny, like not taking ourselves too seriously. Being able to just like you said, like, at this point in life, look back and say, Yeah, everybody. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you. Again, Jerry. This is so so insightful. And I'm grateful for all the work that you do out in the world help people know how they can find you connect with you and learn more from you.

Jerry Fu  43:05  
Yeah, easiest way you can find me on LinkedIn. But all the all the best resources are on my website, www dot adapting leaders.com You can get a free guide that you can download detailing the framework that we discussed on this episode. And then you can also schedule a complimentary 30 minute call just to experience how coaching can help you, you know, no obligation, no strings attached. And then you can also check out the free blog where I summarize useful and interesting leadership literature and offer other life hacks and plug other podcasts, you know that I've been on to say, Hey, these are some fun people, check them out, listen to what they have to say.

Lindsay Miller  43:44  
Awesome. Well, definitely get your download guide from Jerry so that you can work with me and we can compare notes about how we're following the five steps to make our family life conflicts a little more smooth, or at least a little more skillful. Maybe that's

Jerry Fu  43:59  
a Yeah, I mean, because here's the thing, right? Like, this is bonus tip, right? What happens when you resolve this conflict, you get to move on to the next conflict. So you know, you just it frees you up to just move on to the next thing and that's okay, like don't live in quadrant one like Stephen Covey says, where everything is urgent tested for and then you just like fires everywhere. But hey, but if this moving past this obstacle is what allows you to, you know, focus on more meaningful things. That's really the big thing and just be ready for the fact that there will always be some kind of conflict. That's not something you can avoid at that shit. Ideally, you'd embrace it and realize, you know what, as conflict comes up, let me use this as an opportunity better, and I'm just going to keep getting better. It's okay.

Lindsay Miller  44:41  
Yeah, so grateful. You're here to help us do that excellently?

Jerry Fu  44:44  
Yeah. Happy to help.

Lindsay Miller  44:46  
Thanks again, Jerry.

Jerry Fu  44:47  
All right. See you next time.

Lindsay Miller  44:50  
So what did you think of this episode? I hope you enjoyed it and that it had some tidbits in it that were helpful for you. I think my favorite one was invasion. What a resolution looked like. And then kind of getting creative about the steps to take to get there. But really, so many of the things you said resonated with me and I loved all the different points of wisdom that he brought in and I would love to hear what parts of it resonated with you. As always, I would love for you to share this episode with anyone who could use some help dealing with conflict. And if you follow along, you'll get a new episode every week. And I would really appreciate a review you can go to rate this podcast, slash distress nanny to leave a review. Thanks again for being here. Until next time!

Transcribed by https://otter.ai