How Mindfulness & Psychodynamic Therapy Can Help You Break Free from Narcissistic Patterns That Destroy Relationships

WEBVTT

00:00:20.559 --> 00:00:29.199
Welcome to the Stress Nanny, the podcast where we take the overwhelm out of parenting and help kids and parents build calm, confidence, and connection.

00:00:29.440 --> 00:00:35.039
I'm your host, Lindsay Miller, Kids Mindfulness Coach and Cheerleader for Busy Families Everywhere.

00:00:35.200 --> 00:00:47.200
Each week we'll explore simple tools, uplifting stories, and practical strategies to help your child learn emotional regulation, resilience, and self-confidence, while giving you a little more peace of mind too.

00:00:47.359 --> 00:00:49.039
I'm so glad you're here.

00:00:50.479 --> 00:00:53.280
I am so excited for my conversation today with Dr.

00:00:53.359 --> 00:00:54.719
Anthony Mazella.

00:00:54.880 --> 00:01:02.560
He is a narcissism specialist, and he's going to talk with us about some of the signs and stresses that accompany narcissistic relationships.

00:01:02.719 --> 00:01:04.799
Anthony, thank you so much for joining me.

00:01:05.200 --> 00:01:06.079
Hello, Lindsay.

00:01:06.319 --> 00:01:06.719
Thank you.

00:01:06.799 --> 00:01:16.879
I appreciate you having me on your show and giving me this opportunity to share some of my thoughts on what I think you know is a very, very complicated topic, right?

00:01:17.200 --> 00:01:18.159
Yes, for sure.

00:01:18.319 --> 00:01:20.560
Which is why we're grateful to have an expert.

00:01:20.879 --> 00:01:22.079
Well, let me see what I could do.

00:01:22.159 --> 00:01:24.000
I'm I'm going to try my best.

00:01:24.799 --> 00:01:28.640
As we get started, let's just go over some basics.

00:01:28.799 --> 00:01:36.319
When somebody's been through a narcissistic relationship, what are some of the emotional or psychological challenges they're left with?

00:01:36.879 --> 00:01:43.280
Okay, so if it's okay, I just I want to set a foundation of like what is a narcissistic relationship?

00:01:43.519 --> 00:01:50.079
But just for your for your listeners, I want to share my bias, which is this is from a psychodynamic perspective.

00:01:50.239 --> 00:01:50.560
Okay.

00:01:51.040 --> 00:01:59.040
So from a psychodynamic perspective, a narcissistic relationship primarily exists in what we call an illusion.

00:01:59.200 --> 00:02:01.359
That's the illusion of togetherness.

00:02:01.519 --> 00:02:06.719
That's what we call a blissful union, or some people call it codependency.

00:02:06.959 --> 00:02:11.120
Some other people call it a shared unconscious fantasy.

00:02:11.360 --> 00:02:34.479
But primarily, if it's really a narcissistic relationship, it's about two people coming together to finally feel like they've been seen, that they've been validated, that they're recognized, that they're being held, all the things that typically go missing earlier in life, things that they missed out on that they're looking to fix in their current relationship.

00:02:35.120 --> 00:02:37.680
So that's sort of the foundation.

00:02:37.840 --> 00:02:47.039
But let me just pause just for a moment to see does that even make sense, or is there anything more that I could say about just what is a what is this kind of relationship?

00:02:47.439 --> 00:02:52.479
Yeah, no, I I really appreciate that explanation and the way you tethered it to some other things.

00:02:52.639 --> 00:03:08.319
Let's maybe dive a little deeper just for our listeners and explore how you initially kind of recognize or come to the realization that that like maybe you're using a present relationship to meet past needs.

00:03:08.800 --> 00:03:17.199
Okay, so one thing that you'll typically see in these relationships, which is like a red flag, is an intense level of togetherness.

00:03:17.759 --> 00:03:24.000
In other words, each partner has a hard time letting the other partner exist in their own right.

00:03:24.080 --> 00:03:29.280
So I don't mean just literal separations, which by the way are always painfully difficult.

00:03:29.520 --> 00:03:33.199
He wants to go out with his friends, she wants to go on a trip with the girls.

00:03:33.360 --> 00:03:40.479
It's there's usually a fight around that because togetherness, and not just togetherness, but everything has to be great.

00:03:40.719 --> 00:03:42.560
Everybody has to always be happy.

00:03:42.719 --> 00:03:45.120
Why do we have to talk about negative things?

00:03:45.280 --> 00:03:47.280
Can't you just be more positive?

00:03:47.599 --> 00:03:56.240
These are all things that one imagines should occur in a relationship, but this is not what makes up a healthy relationship.

00:03:56.479 --> 00:04:01.360
Togetherness and time alone, one opinion is okay.

00:04:01.520 --> 00:04:06.800
If the other opinion is different, these are all signs of a very healthy relationship.

00:04:07.039 --> 00:04:08.800
So those are the red flags.

00:04:08.960 --> 00:04:21.839
And I mean, there are many more, but the glaring red flag is problems around separation and letting the other person exist in their own right as a separate person with their own opinion that's different than yours.

00:04:21.920 --> 00:04:22.720
That's the key.

00:04:22.879 --> 00:04:28.639
If they can't have their own opinion if it's the same as yours, because then that's the blissful togetherness again.

00:04:28.959 --> 00:04:30.240
Okay, yeah, thank you.

00:04:30.399 --> 00:04:31.519
That was clarifying.

00:04:32.240 --> 00:04:36.000
So it now let's go like one step further.

00:04:36.319 --> 00:04:48.079
In that relationship, there is this like blissful togetherness, everything seems great, but then engaging outside of that relationship with other people, there's some friction, right?

00:04:48.639 --> 00:05:05.199
Yeah, because once you're doing something outside the relationship, again, if there are narcissistic disturbances, it's not just a like a separation, but it's often experienced as an abandonment, like you left me or you rejected me.

00:05:05.439 --> 00:05:11.439
And for the narcissist or someone who has these characteristics, that's too painfully difficult to tolerate.

00:05:11.519 --> 00:05:18.720
And that's why there's often a fight around somebody doing something that's different or having a hobby that's separate from.

00:05:19.199 --> 00:05:20.399
So, yeah.

00:05:20.639 --> 00:05:29.279
So having a life outside is difficult for another reason as well, which is if you go out and you have fun, what does that mean?

00:05:29.439 --> 00:05:30.879
What does that say about me?

00:05:31.120 --> 00:05:32.879
Am I no longer valuable?

00:05:33.040 --> 00:05:35.519
In other words, I thought I was the most important person.

00:05:35.680 --> 00:05:44.639
It's like someone who, let's say, has a family and they're a couple of kids, and they need to go away on a business meeting and they start getting anxious about leaving for their business meeting.

00:05:44.800 --> 00:05:53.519
And I explore that with them because part of what I do in my work with these individuals is I get really close as possible to their subjective experience.

00:05:53.759 --> 00:05:55.279
And I start to explore this.

00:05:55.360 --> 00:06:02.800
And what I discover is what if I go away and everybody's fine, the family's fine, and they function without me and they have a good time.

00:06:03.120 --> 00:06:05.199
See, that means I'm not really that important.

00:06:05.360 --> 00:06:07.519
I'm kind of irrelevant in the family.

00:06:07.680 --> 00:06:14.000
And for the person who has these narcissistic traits, they need to feel like the most important thing.

00:06:14.480 --> 00:06:14.800
Yeah.

00:06:15.199 --> 00:06:15.439
Yeah.

00:06:15.600 --> 00:06:17.199
No, that's powerful.

00:06:17.519 --> 00:06:29.279
And then the pull of that on the person in the relationship is so strong that there are limited opportunities, right?

00:06:29.439 --> 00:06:43.920
To, like you're saying, to have any external experience to kind of alert them to the fact that, like, oh, maybe this isn't how most people do it, or oh, maybe this is different, or oh, like because it's so insular, there are less reference points outside, right?

00:06:44.079 --> 00:06:45.759
To kind of verify what's going on.

00:06:46.560 --> 00:06:47.759
No, that's a really good point.

00:06:47.839 --> 00:06:48.879
I didn't even mention that.

00:06:49.040 --> 00:06:54.399
Is that in general, I you know, I work not just with individuals, but with couples as well.

00:06:54.480 --> 00:06:58.800
And oftentimes by the time they get to me, their life is very insular.

00:06:58.959 --> 00:07:10.319
In other words, there's not many rich opportunities that go on outside of either themselves or the family, or maybe a very close circle, but that usually just includes their families.

00:07:10.399 --> 00:07:15.199
Like, oh, we're always at his family's house, or we're always at with her mother.

00:07:15.439 --> 00:07:26.319
So yeah, life becomes very limited in that way, which then just feeds into, unfortunately, and becomes a perpetuating cycle of disillusionment.

00:07:26.800 --> 00:07:28.240
Yeah, yeah.

00:07:28.800 --> 00:07:32.399
So then let's let's say like post-relationship.

00:07:32.560 --> 00:07:43.199
Let's say someone is recognized, you know, they've tried to reconcile, trying to work through it, maybe haven't been able to, and have have put some distance in in that relationship, right?

00:07:43.360 --> 00:07:54.240
And they're now post-relationship trying to kind of figure out how to engage with people from a more healthy or a more autonomous place.

00:07:54.639 --> 00:08:02.399
What are some of the like leftover remnants of the relationship that are gonna kind of they're gonna have to kind of manage and deal with that?

00:08:02.480 --> 00:08:06.800
What are those emotional and psychological challenges that are maybe gonna be with them for a bit?

00:08:07.120 --> 00:08:09.360
Oh boy, this one is a little complicated.

00:08:09.439 --> 00:08:13.439
Can I use an analogy just sort of to drive it home to the listeners?

00:08:13.759 --> 00:08:17.920
So if anybody has known anybody who's been caught up in a scam, right?

00:08:18.079 --> 00:08:25.360
So these people that get caught up in a scam oftentimes give away their whole life savings, right?

00:08:25.519 --> 00:08:31.920
And I've heard these stories before, and they have loved ones telling them you are being scammed, right?

00:08:32.159 --> 00:08:38.799
But they can't hear it because there's this illusion of what fame, power, wealth.

00:08:38.879 --> 00:08:41.360
There's a big payoff at the end.

00:08:41.840 --> 00:08:53.840
So for someone to leave a scam, for someone to leave a cult, right, where you're also brainwashed into believing that salvation is just around the corner, right?

00:08:54.080 --> 00:08:56.720
That all your needs are going to be gratified.

00:08:57.759 --> 00:09:01.600
For someone to leave a narcissistic relationship, you see, it's the same thing.

00:09:01.759 --> 00:09:21.679
So to your point, Lindsay, when you leave, now if you leave that illusion behind, which is not easy because you're leaving the hope, the promise of salvation, and all what we call internal propaganda that goes along with it, you know, that life is going to be wonderful once this happens, right?

00:09:22.480 --> 00:09:28.559
So now you're in reality and you're expected to leave that behind.

00:09:28.799 --> 00:09:31.440
And that's a big, big loss, right?

00:09:31.519 --> 00:09:37.360
Because you know, you've had so you just gave away your whole life savings, or you've been with this partner for many years.

00:09:37.600 --> 00:09:48.000
So that's on one level what makes it very difficult because you're asking someone to step into a painful reality and leave all the internal propaganda behind.

00:09:48.320 --> 00:09:52.480
So that's one thing, and I'll just mention one other thing that's really hard.

00:09:52.799 --> 00:10:06.960
So the question is why would you ever leave this relationship if it seems so wonderful and blissful and there's this togetherness, and you have, yeah, maybe you don't have a lot of friends or hobbies, but you do have your family of origin and/or maybe his.

00:10:07.519 --> 00:10:12.000
But it also comes with intense moments of devaluation as well.

00:10:12.240 --> 00:10:21.759
Because when there are times when there is separation, and it's inevitable, it's so hard to stay in a narcissistic bubble, just reality always gets in the way.

00:10:22.320 --> 00:10:30.000
Then you are devalued, or you're devaluing him, and then there's you know a lot of intense fighting, name calling.

00:10:30.240 --> 00:10:38.720
And when you leave, you're not just giving up something, which is that propaganda that I mentioned, the salvation, but you also take something with you.

00:10:38.799 --> 00:10:40.639
And I think you know about this, Lindsay.

00:10:40.799 --> 00:10:43.200
In fact, we spoke about this earlier, right?

00:10:43.440 --> 00:10:45.759
Is you take the negative voices with you.

00:10:45.919 --> 00:10:49.519
Like, remember the stream of negativity coming at you.

00:10:49.679 --> 00:10:58.559
So all the voices of like, you can't make it without me, the only one who will ever put up with you, you know, you don't feel worthy or capable.

00:10:58.879 --> 00:11:08.159
Could you imagine then trying to start a life with not just the loss that you're asked to deal with, but now what you also bring with you, which are these critical voices.

00:11:08.240 --> 00:11:14.720
So those are just a few of the most immediate challenges when someone gets out of this kind of relationship.

00:11:14.960 --> 00:11:15.919
Does that make sense?

00:11:16.240 --> 00:11:18.559
No, I I thank you for the way you described it.

00:11:18.720 --> 00:11:23.120
And as you were talking, I was thinking and and tethering some of the things you had said.

00:11:23.279 --> 00:11:31.039
And as Anthony mentioned, we had a conversation about mindfully approaching these types of relationships on his podcast.

00:11:31.120 --> 00:11:35.279
And I'm gonna we'll talk more about that at the end, and I'm gonna link to it in the show notes.

00:11:35.519 --> 00:11:49.360
But one of the things that was just like a stark reality when with what you were describing is like with this vision of perfection, this vision of you know, the the the amazingness of this relationship eventually comes.

00:11:49.840 --> 00:11:58.639
And then you had said, I think if I heard you right, a lot of times the blame for that vision not coming to fruition is the other person.

00:11:59.840 --> 00:12:16.480
So if the other person is to blame for the demise of the relationship, and then they're also devalued because of all the things said in the relationship, and then they're trying to like bravely step foot into a space where they're all of a sudden confident and competent about making their own choices.

00:12:16.639 --> 00:12:18.639
I mean, that's such a big leap.

00:12:18.960 --> 00:12:40.000
Yes, especially because I'll just add one other piece, which I know is always a little controversial, but for people who have a little bit of a more open mind to this, and this is complicated stuff, so I'm not saying this definitively, but oftentimes it's called a shared unconscious fantasy because both people in the relationship are looking to have some sort of need met.

00:12:40.399 --> 00:12:49.919
And that means that they can't do it internally, so they need those external supplies, they need that constant source of external validation.

00:12:50.080 --> 00:12:55.200
When her husband just goes in the other room with the kids, the feeling is why would he leave me alone here?

00:12:55.360 --> 00:12:57.759
Why didn't he invite me into the room with the kids?

00:12:57.840 --> 00:12:59.759
He's playing with them without me.

00:13:00.080 --> 00:13:16.639
So then there's that constant need, and I say it's controversial because it's a lot more comfortable and easier, and I hear this quite a bit to say, look at my narcissistically disturbed partner, whatever, husband, wife, mother, whoever it is.

00:13:17.039 --> 00:13:18.559
And that may be true.

00:13:18.720 --> 00:13:20.000
I want to emphasize that.

00:13:20.159 --> 00:13:27.519
It doesn't mean that they're not, but oftentimes there's an interpersonal dynamic that keeps these relationships alive.

00:13:27.679 --> 00:13:29.360
So now back to your point, Lindsay.

00:13:29.440 --> 00:13:46.159
So when they leave the relationship, if in fact that is true, what I'm saying is that they do depend on external validation and supplies as well, how can they possibly be in another relationship in a healthy way unless they begin to work this through?

00:13:46.399 --> 00:13:59.120
Because then once they get in another relationship, they're going to lean on their friend or family member or next partner for the same type of relationship because that's what went missing again in their earlier childhood.

00:13:59.279 --> 00:14:03.200
And just as a quick aside, I can't tell you how often I hear this.

00:14:03.440 --> 00:14:05.279
I hear it on social media.

00:14:05.440 --> 00:14:19.519
And recently I did an interview with a woman and we were talking about this, and she was very honest in sharing that when she left her narcissistic husband, she said my next three relationships were all with people who were pathologically disturbed.

00:14:19.840 --> 00:14:27.039
Other people say I end up going back to the relationship, even though it's not what I want, pulled back into it.

00:14:27.360 --> 00:14:37.759
So I'm sorry to make it a little more complicated, but that's another challenge that they face is that that need for something doesn't just go away because they work, you know, they left the relationship.

00:14:38.000 --> 00:14:40.080
They have to really start to work through it.

00:14:41.039 --> 00:14:42.000
Yes, yeah.

00:14:42.159 --> 00:14:44.240
No, I'm so glad you pointed that out.

00:14:44.399 --> 00:14:49.679
One of my dear friends is navigating life post-narcissistic divorce.

00:14:50.000 --> 00:14:56.080
And she has been doing so much work around just these very things you're saying, right?

00:14:56.240 --> 00:15:09.519
Around trying to figure out what dynamics, what patterns, what needs she needs to meet for herself in order to connect in a relationship in a more whole way.

00:15:09.679 --> 00:15:10.000
Yes.

00:15:10.720 --> 00:15:18.080
And on your show, we we spent quite a bit of time talking about like sitting in the discomfort of those types of moments, right?

00:15:18.159 --> 00:15:22.720
Like those realizations, those are not easy to stomach.

00:15:23.039 --> 00:15:24.720
Yeah, that's right.

00:15:25.039 --> 00:15:40.639
And I'll tell you just something again as an aside, the realization, it's it's such a strange thing because it's so gratifying to watch, like when I work with these patients go through it, even though it's so painfully difficult, it's both heartbreaking but so necessary.

00:15:40.879 --> 00:15:56.960
So someone like who grows up, like this is like a prototypical example with let's say a narcissistically disturbed or a preoccupied parent who doesn't have the capacity to really be there for them emotionally when they're a child, but gives them a lot of gifts, right?

00:15:57.360 --> 00:16:01.039
So the way they express love is through gift giving.

00:16:01.200 --> 00:16:17.279
So now this person grows up not really knowing how to be in a genuine relationship, and they get into you know relationships as an adult and they don't understand why they keep fizzling out and why the woman keeps saying things like you are not emotionally available.

00:16:17.519 --> 00:16:27.279
And they're like, but I buy you gifts or I take you on trips, and then they begin to realize through the work, you know, as we go through this, that that is not connecting.

00:16:27.440 --> 00:16:36.240
And in fact, they didn't feel that they were connected at all to their parent because they were never recognized, they were just given gifts.

00:16:36.480 --> 00:16:40.480
So this is one of the ways that then it interferes with the next relationship.

00:16:40.559 --> 00:16:44.399
I'm still thinking about what it's like, you know, post-yeah.

00:16:44.879 --> 00:16:46.799
No, I thank you for bringing that up.

00:16:46.879 --> 00:16:56.480
That's so insightful too, because I think the place where mindfulness can have an impact here is in the moment-to-moment decisions, right?

00:16:56.639 --> 00:17:04.079
And we've talked about that like your the type of work that you do is the is at the heart of making those changes, right?

00:17:04.160 --> 00:17:12.880
Of recognizing the patterns, recognizing the needs, understanding how to move forward in a way that helps you meet those needs more autonomously.

00:17:13.440 --> 00:17:31.759
And then mindfulness is what like is a little toolkit you can use in those small day today moments when you have you know this pull towards something you know isn't gonna support you, and like this tiny spark of bravery pulling you forward into the person that you're trying to become, right?

00:17:32.000 --> 00:17:33.039
Yes, yep, yep.

00:17:33.279 --> 00:17:39.599
And and like having having the support and the awareness on that journey is so vital, right?

00:17:39.920 --> 00:17:45.039
Yeah, and you said brave, you know, and I say like, yes, brave, because it takes a lot of courage.

00:17:45.119 --> 00:17:48.480
You have to muster up a lot of even just to leave this kind of relationship.

00:17:48.559 --> 00:17:54.799
Yeah, but I would also say I trust that there's a developmental push in all of us, you know.

00:17:54.880 --> 00:18:00.240
Oftentimes I hear narcissists don't come for therapy, or why would a narcissist ever come for therapy?

00:18:00.400 --> 00:18:02.480
And it's true, probably many do not.

00:18:02.559 --> 00:18:12.240
So I'm biased because I'm talking about the ones who do come, but they know deep inside, oftentimes they know something is wrong.

00:18:12.480 --> 00:18:19.200
And developmentally, there's always a push that can't be ignored, that they want to do better in life.

00:18:19.359 --> 00:18:30.319
And oftentimes when there's a severe enough collapse, like leaving this kind or recognizing that this is not a healthy relationship, that they deserve better, that's a developmental push right there.

00:18:30.640 --> 00:18:33.920
So, hey, let's do something for fun if you don't mind, okay?

00:18:34.240 --> 00:18:39.279
Because you mentioned mindfulness, yeah, and I'd love to juxtapose it with containment.

00:18:39.359 --> 00:18:41.839
That's a concept that I use quite frequently.

00:18:42.000 --> 00:18:44.640
So I'm going to whip up a clinical example.

00:18:44.799 --> 00:18:50.000
Again, like let's put this, you know, the fellow aside just for a moment whose mother gave him the gifts.

00:18:50.160 --> 00:18:56.160
This is a person who comes in and tells me about an argument with her husband, right?

00:18:56.400 --> 00:18:57.920
About child rearing.

00:18:58.160 --> 00:19:00.400
So I want to get your opinion on this, Lindsay.

00:19:00.480 --> 00:19:02.160
And you tell me, is this mindfulness?

00:19:02.319 --> 00:19:03.839
I'm going to tell you what I did.

00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:07.759
And then you say, Yeah, this is or it's not, or this is how it would look different.

00:19:08.000 --> 00:19:11.759
So I'm listening to the story about how there's a disagreement.

00:19:11.920 --> 00:19:15.440
He had a different opinion on how they should rear the child, right?

00:19:16.240 --> 00:19:21.920
And then she shifts and she starts telling me about what a wonderful weekend they had together.

00:19:22.160 --> 00:19:32.400
And I point to her, I point out that I've noticed something, and I wonder if she's aware of it as well, that she was telling me about a disagreement and she seemed a little uncomfortable.

00:19:32.559 --> 00:19:36.559
And then suddenly she shifted, telling me about what a wonderful weekend they had.

00:19:36.799 --> 00:19:48.240
And if she's like, Yes, I noticed that, like it, it's like a it's a process, by the way, in terms of how I do this, because if there's too much denial, we have to go back and kind of take another pass at it in a different way.

00:19:48.400 --> 00:19:57.359
But if she's buying into it, I would begin to talk to her about what made her uncomfortable about thinking about a different opinion.

00:19:57.519 --> 00:20:04.079
You see, there's the difference that comes up in such subtle ways in everyday life, but that's quite devastating.

00:20:04.319 --> 00:20:06.960
So, what does she do to handle it, to feel better?

00:20:07.119 --> 00:20:09.039
And this is what I talked to her about.

00:20:09.279 --> 00:20:14.480
In order to manage the difference, she goes to what a wonderful weekend it was.

00:20:14.640 --> 00:20:17.680
And some people could go to attacking the other person as well.

00:20:17.920 --> 00:20:19.519
That's a way to be together too.

00:20:19.680 --> 00:20:24.400
I know that seems paradoxical, but that is togetherness because now you're in a fight, right?

00:20:24.720 --> 00:20:31.519
But in any matter, slowing her down and then recognizing the shift to a blissful, right?

00:20:31.599 --> 00:20:37.599
There's your narcissistic relationship, and why it's important for me to track this, in my mind at least.

00:20:37.920 --> 00:20:39.920
Would you say, would you call that mindful?

00:20:40.240 --> 00:20:40.880
I'm just curious.

00:20:40.960 --> 00:20:43.119
This is where I love to have a little dialogue with you.

00:20:43.279 --> 00:20:46.880
Would you call that mindfulness, or is that a little different?

00:20:47.119 --> 00:20:47.359
Yeah.

00:20:47.519 --> 00:20:49.440
No, I would definitely call that mindfulness.

00:20:49.519 --> 00:20:55.599
Cause again, if we're looking at like what's going on inside of me, what's going on outside of me, and then making a choice on purpose, right?

00:20:55.680 --> 00:21:15.519
Like if you're noticing the this the distraction or the detour, and then you're bringing attention to like the discomfort, and then she's able to sit in the discomfort, recognize the context, what's going on outside of her that maybe prompted the discomfort, and then work through it with you.

00:21:15.759 --> 00:21:16.000
Yeah.

00:21:16.240 --> 00:21:17.920
Yeah, I would say that's a mindful moment.

00:21:18.000 --> 00:21:19.519
So you call that containment?

00:21:19.759 --> 00:21:22.960
Yeah, containment because we slow them down, right?

00:21:23.119 --> 00:21:31.359
And then we develop what's again another fancy word, but it's called mentalization, a capacity to start to reflect on one's own inner state.

00:21:31.599 --> 00:21:35.039
So the inner state was discomfort, but she didn't know that.

00:21:35.200 --> 00:21:36.640
I mean, she knew it just briefly.

00:21:36.720 --> 00:21:39.680
That's why she was close enough that I could bring her back to it.

00:21:39.920 --> 00:21:43.119
Sometimes it's just too far away and this doesn't work, you know?

00:21:43.279 --> 00:21:43.440
Yeah.

00:21:43.680 --> 00:22:08.240
But yeah, we would call that containment, which is not just sitting there listening to somebody, but it usually starts with validating, you know, if they're dysregulated, like really upset or angry about something, get them into a more regulated state, and then to start to m ask these inquisitive questions to help them begin to develop a capacity for self-reflection, which they could take with them when they leave.

00:22:08.640 --> 00:22:09.920
Yeah, yeah.

00:22:10.160 --> 00:22:12.480
Yeah, no, that's that's so fascinating too.

00:22:12.559 --> 00:22:20.640
And I love how granular you got in terms of you know noticing the nuance, like that mindful therapy for sure, right?

00:22:20.799 --> 00:22:21.200
Yes.

00:22:21.599 --> 00:22:26.319
In terms of like, is is this within like her ability to tolerate, right?

00:22:26.480 --> 00:22:29.359
Because I think for for we do that with kids too, right?

00:22:29.599 --> 00:22:38.240
When we're trying to kind of help them grow through something or trying to navigate something, we're like, is this gonna put them over or are they in a position they could talk this through, right?

00:22:38.319 --> 00:22:52.880
Like, is this gonna and so I I think that that's such a great awareness in terms of working with a situation where you're seeing something and you're wanting to give the person an opportunity to see it as well, but in a way that they can tolerate.

00:22:53.200 --> 00:22:59.759
And in a way that hopefully, if done, and and I think the best way is that they come to it on their own.

00:22:59.920 --> 00:23:12.480
Sometimes you have to help them, but again, that's always judging because sometimes with people who do have these narcissistic characteristics, if you come in with a different perspective, you see now I'm just like the husband.

00:23:12.559 --> 00:23:13.599
You see what I mean?

00:23:13.920 --> 00:23:26.559
So the goal, I don't know if I captured it in this little tiny vignette that I just gave, but the goal is to try to help them begin to recognize that I moved away or just start to think about what just happened.

00:23:26.720 --> 00:23:39.519
So rather than saying you felt anxious about separation, I wouldn't say that probably, unless I'm working with somebody and we've already used that language because now I'm just telling them something and I don't really feel confronting.

00:23:39.599 --> 00:23:42.799
Yeah, yeah, it's confronting because obviously they're avoiding it for a reason.

00:23:42.960 --> 00:23:44.880
Who am I to go force it back?

00:23:45.039 --> 00:23:48.480
You know, unless they're just close enough, they're on the precipice of it.

00:23:48.640 --> 00:23:55.759
Maybe I'll help a little bit, but usually I find it more valuable to ask the questions to see if I can help them get to it.

00:23:56.079 --> 00:24:08.640
Yeah, which is so skillful, and uh, I love that about your approach, is that it is empowering at its core for a situation that is not at all empowering, right?

00:24:09.279 --> 00:24:10.079
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:24:10.240 --> 00:24:12.799
Yeah, because they're feeling so who knows what?

00:24:12.880 --> 00:24:13.680
That's the whole point.

00:24:13.759 --> 00:24:15.279
Like, we don't know what they're feeling.

00:24:15.440 --> 00:24:18.559
So who am I to assume unless we start getting closer to that?

00:24:18.799 --> 00:24:30.400
Because that's the whole beauty of you know, to go back to what we said before, the illusion of togetherness is not to feel deeply, you know, just it's it's all about just being admired, just being recognized.

00:24:30.720 --> 00:24:31.359
Yeah.

00:24:31.920 --> 00:24:38.720
What what do you think are some of like the pieces that are missing as people are recovering from relationship?

00:24:38.799 --> 00:24:50.640
I feel like having having these types of experiences, I could be wrong, but I think in therapeutic settings, like your approach, it is unique and beautiful, right?

00:24:50.799 --> 00:24:55.200
And and I don't I don't know that that's the experience most people get.

00:24:55.519 --> 00:24:57.759
Do you feel like working with specialized?

00:24:57.920 --> 00:25:06.559
Obviously, you do, and I do, but working with the specialized support, it just feels like a different piece of the like empowerment puzzle.

00:25:06.640 --> 00:25:17.599
So instead of maybe just like dusting the surface of something, you you're able to kind of get in there and help people make those inside out changes that are more lasting.

00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:20.960
Yeah, we look for something that's called structural change.

00:25:21.119 --> 00:25:37.119
But if we look at the sort of the underlying theory, and I think you know this too, because again, we spoke earlier and I think you nodded, but with the personality disorders, any of them, there's what's known as a fragmented sense of self, which means you know, you've heard this concept splitting.

00:25:37.279 --> 00:25:43.759
This is why they're prone to splitting, because they're not able to integrate, something you and I discussed again a little bit earlier.

00:25:43.920 --> 00:25:51.920
So the ultimate goal after, only after the containment part, which I think now we could call mindfulness, by the way, right?

00:25:52.240 --> 00:25:56.960
Helping them become more reflective and mindful, because that has to happen first.

00:25:57.279 --> 00:26:06.640
Then we can move into the deeper work that I think you're you're hinting at right here, which is to begin to integrate one sense of self.

00:26:06.799 --> 00:26:07.920
What does that even mean?

00:26:08.079 --> 00:26:12.319
All that means, you know, it's like fancy jargon, but just really simple.

00:26:12.640 --> 00:26:21.440
It just means that these people, anybody who has a personality disorder, typically has an image of themselves, like with the narcissist, as what?

00:26:21.759 --> 00:26:29.279
Either grandiose, special, or believe it or not, very weak, needy, clingy.

00:26:29.440 --> 00:26:33.519
They they all go together, they're all part of the grandiose structure, by the way.

00:26:33.759 --> 00:26:47.279
So we need to help them begin to integrate these very different self-representations because when they're split, they could feel one way one moment and another way the next, and it makes for a very disintegrated life.

00:26:47.359 --> 00:26:50.640
But the the other piece is they also project this, as you know.

00:26:50.720 --> 00:26:55.359
So they don't just see themselves in this way, and they see you this way too.

00:26:55.440 --> 00:27:02.079
So one minute you're the best, you're amazing, you're wonderful, and the next minute you're not very valuable anymore.

00:27:02.319 --> 00:27:11.599
So it makes for tumultuous relationships, and that's where these people who have these narcissistic traits typically struggle the most, is in intimate relationships.

00:27:11.759 --> 00:27:13.680
They can do pretty good at work, by the way.

00:27:13.759 --> 00:27:17.519
You know, they even rise to high levels of achievement at work.

00:27:17.839 --> 00:27:23.119
CEOs, lawyers, you know, they really do well, especially if they have a lot of people working under them.

00:27:23.279 --> 00:27:25.839
That works in their favor.

00:27:27.119 --> 00:27:27.519
Yeah.

00:27:27.759 --> 00:27:32.960
And thank you for thank you for all the different pieces of perspective you just shared.

00:27:33.039 --> 00:27:41.119
Because I think that there's so much value in recognizing that like these types of moments or traits or tendencies show up in a lot of different places, right?

00:27:41.279 --> 00:27:49.599
And like you're saying, they may, they, they may be something you're like just having an inkling of, or they may be something you really understand and kind of are identifying with.

00:27:49.920 --> 00:28:07.519
But along the way, as we can like pick up on different tendencies or work with different tendencies in a mindful way, there's the opportunity to move through some of the work of healing or growing or relating in a more healthy way.

00:28:07.839 --> 00:28:10.640
Yeah, more a more when and we could be more specific.

00:28:10.799 --> 00:28:20.000
Like healing, then, in my opinion, in a psychodynamic perspective for personality disorders, is then that integration, developing a more integrated sense of self.

00:28:20.160 --> 00:28:22.240
When you're more integrated, you project less.

00:28:22.400 --> 00:28:26.880
When you project less, that means that people in the environment are less angry.

00:28:26.960 --> 00:28:28.799
We didn't even talk about anger yet.

00:28:29.039 --> 00:28:40.000
And if they're less angry at you, right, then you have friendlier relationships because not everybody's out to hurt you or not hold the door open for you because they don't like you or something like that.

00:28:40.319 --> 00:28:40.799
Yeah.

00:28:41.039 --> 00:28:50.480
And let's take a minute to talk about projection too, because I think that in terms of I've never had a psychodynamic specialist on my podcast before.

00:28:50.880 --> 00:28:54.720
And so I I mean, I've talked to a number of psychologists, right?

00:28:54.799 --> 00:29:02.240
But in terms of your specialty and the mode that you use for practice, I feel like the the idea of projection is super powerful.

00:29:02.400 --> 00:29:10.720
So can you explore that uh both through the lens of narcissistic relationships and then we can maybe extrapolate into like kids?

00:29:11.279 --> 00:29:15.920
Yeah, so let me just start off very basic and then we'll build from there based on what questions, okay?

00:29:16.079 --> 00:29:17.680
So what is projection?

00:29:17.839 --> 00:29:29.680
So projection just basically means that there's something inside of us, a feeling or a thought that's too painful to tolerate, and it's much more comfortable to get rid of it, eject it, right?

00:29:29.839 --> 00:29:34.480
And then, but the problem with that is we eject it and then we put it on you, right?

00:29:34.640 --> 00:29:36.480
Now, sometimes it has great value.

00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:39.279
Like if I feel weak or powerless, right?

00:29:39.359 --> 00:29:49.759
Because I had an abusive father, it's much better to see you as weak and powerless and be power, you know, have the power over you because I don't have to then tolerate that painful feeling, right?

00:29:50.559 --> 00:29:57.519
But the problem with that, unfortunately, is we tend to people don't talk about interjection hardly ever.

00:29:57.599 --> 00:29:59.839
You probably don't even hear that word common, you know, it's not.

00:30:00.160 --> 00:30:01.359
So commonly used.

00:30:01.599 --> 00:30:04.720
But basically, we interject the people in our environment, right?

00:30:04.799 --> 00:30:08.400
This is the people who are closest to us are the things that we take in.

00:30:08.559 --> 00:30:19.519
So could you imagine, Lindsay, if everything you're projecting is negative, now you gotta, like let's say it's anger and you can't tolerate your anger, you would be imagining that I'm angry at you, right?

00:30:20.000 --> 00:30:22.480
But that makes for a very painful environment, right?

00:30:22.559 --> 00:30:25.440
Now you're taking in these angry, what we call introjects.

00:30:25.519 --> 00:30:30.880
I don't want to get too technical, but that's why it just becomes so important to work with projection.

00:30:31.039 --> 00:30:37.920
Again, you hear these stories that sometimes um people who have these narcissistic traits are so worried about being judged.

00:30:38.160 --> 00:30:42.960
Sometimes they're so worried about being judged that they hold themselves back in life.

00:30:43.119 --> 00:30:45.839
They hole up in their apartments or in their house.

00:30:46.000 --> 00:30:50.880
They think that if they go outside, their next door neighbor is going to be critical of them, right?

00:30:50.960 --> 00:30:52.480
Because they didn't mow their lawn.

00:30:52.640 --> 00:30:54.400
I don't know, something like that, right?

00:30:54.799 --> 00:31:02.480
So you could imagine then getting into these projections and starting to explore and helping them own parts of themselves.

00:31:02.720 --> 00:31:05.359
The world just becomes a more peaceful place.

00:31:05.519 --> 00:31:08.960
But let me pause because I know I'm kind of throwing out a lot right now.

00:31:09.039 --> 00:31:13.519
But does this am I beginning at least to answer the questions around projection?

00:31:13.680 --> 00:31:15.359
Does it seem a little bit clearer?

00:31:15.599 --> 00:31:24.079
Yeah, but I love the way you described it, like a piece of yourself that you kind of send off, but then that has ramifications in your relationships.

00:31:24.319 --> 00:31:35.359
And I I appreciate the example too, because I think as humans, we can have that tendency, but like in the cases that you work with, there's like an extremity to it.

00:31:35.440 --> 00:31:38.640
Like we're talking about in the extreme, right?

00:31:39.759 --> 00:31:44.079
Yes, I yeah, I guess it's like anything, it's like on a continuum, right?

00:31:44.559 --> 00:31:47.200
So we probably all do this to some extent.

00:31:47.279 --> 00:31:48.160
That's a good point.

00:31:48.319 --> 00:31:51.519
Just like we all have like narcissistic traits to some extent, right?

00:31:51.599 --> 00:31:54.079
We all do things for self-serving purposes.

00:31:54.160 --> 00:32:00.240
It doesn't mean we have NPD, it's just, you know, it feels good sometimes to do something for ourselves, right?

00:32:00.480 --> 00:32:02.160
It feels good to get paid, right?

00:32:02.240 --> 00:32:03.680
Our patients come and they pay us.

00:32:03.759 --> 00:32:04.240
It feels good.

00:32:04.319 --> 00:32:06.480
There's nothing to feel embarrassed about with that.

00:32:06.720 --> 00:32:08.799
But yeah, so there are different levels of it.

00:32:08.880 --> 00:32:23.039
And then depending on the level and how much they project and how hostile that projection, I mean, yes, then it's becomes more serious and then more urgent for us to begin to address that very early on in the treatment.

00:32:23.359 --> 00:32:24.000
Yeah.

00:32:24.559 --> 00:32:35.599
As listeners are hearing this, I also would love to hear what it's like from your perspective to be on the receiving end of projection.

00:32:36.880 --> 00:32:40.240
That's complic, that is complicated business, right?

00:32:40.640 --> 00:32:44.480
Because unfortunately, this is where many couples get in trouble.

00:32:44.720 --> 00:32:51.599
They don't they stay at the manifest level because it's so hard, because you have this intense affect coming at you.

00:32:51.759 --> 00:32:53.440
You're being accused of something.

00:32:53.599 --> 00:32:58.400
It's so hard to look beyond that and begin to wonder where is this really coming from?

00:32:58.559 --> 00:32:59.759
Is it coming from me?

00:32:59.920 --> 00:33:15.279
So for me to be on the accusing end, so when I'm told by a patient that I just helped them and that that felt good, but then they feel upset with me because I only help them for selfish reasons, right?

00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:18.240
Because I only wanted to feel good.

00:33:18.400 --> 00:33:19.759
You see what I mean by that?

00:33:20.000 --> 00:33:25.440
Now, if I don't step back and say to myself, huh, is there something to that?

00:33:25.519 --> 00:33:27.200
I have to take that seriously.

00:33:27.359 --> 00:33:32.880
Maybe I was selfish in a way that maybe I was too like over the top or telling him what to do.

00:33:32.960 --> 00:33:35.279
By the way, I never tell anybody how to live their life.

00:33:35.440 --> 00:33:38.480
I more likely to explore why they're not doing something.

00:33:38.640 --> 00:33:40.799
I hardly ever, ever give advice.

00:33:40.880 --> 00:33:46.240
It's just kind of the psychodynamic approach because I'm no expert on anybody's life, you know.

00:33:46.559 --> 00:33:52.160
But if I get caught, sometimes I may get caught up on that and I have to question did I accidentally do that?

00:33:52.400 --> 00:33:53.279
Did I do this?

00:33:53.440 --> 00:33:59.519
So that's the first step, Lindsay, is for me to really reflect on did is there something here?

00:33:59.599 --> 00:34:00.640
Is there a grain of truth?

00:34:00.720 --> 00:34:03.279
And if there is, then I'll say, you know what, you're right.

00:34:03.359 --> 00:34:05.200
I didn't realize that I did that.

00:34:05.440 --> 00:34:06.640
And I apologize.

00:34:06.799 --> 00:34:09.760
You know, just recently I told someone that they need to look for a job.

00:34:09.840 --> 00:34:12.719
This is someone I'm treating who's not who's living at home.

00:34:12.880 --> 00:34:17.280
You know, I have patients like this in my practice, you know, that we that's part of narcissism.

00:34:17.519 --> 00:34:19.840
They retreat sometimes, they can't get out.

00:34:19.920 --> 00:34:24.239
Remember, I said they fear that they're going to be judged or they'll fail, whatever.

00:34:24.480 --> 00:34:26.239
And I said, you know, you're right.

00:34:26.480 --> 00:34:28.320
I stepped into that inadvertently.

00:34:28.480 --> 00:34:31.679
I need to step out of it now, and we need to look at it together.

00:34:31.840 --> 00:34:33.039
What happened there?

00:34:33.360 --> 00:34:35.679
So, anyway, that's a long answer to the question.

00:34:35.760 --> 00:34:39.920
But the first step is for me to reflect and to think, is this coming from me?

00:34:40.000 --> 00:34:48.639
And then if it's not, then the next step is to help them begin to see, slowly begin to see how this might be coming from them.

00:34:48.800 --> 00:35:09.920
And that's a very slow, delicate process with just very, you know, basic exploratory questions initially, because we said it a moment ago, they're getting rid of this for a reason, and I don't want to shove it back in them prematurely, because then they're going to feel attacked by me, which is not really by me, but it's putting something in them that they don't want.

00:35:10.239 --> 00:35:11.760
Anyway, did that help?

00:35:12.000 --> 00:35:13.679
Or did I get a little okay?

00:35:13.920 --> 00:35:22.559
Yeah, it's so interesting because I think I like the I love the idea of like reflection and then I'm gonna use mindful again, response, right?

00:35:22.719 --> 00:35:40.719
So, like reflection on whether there's any veracity in what was spoken, and then if so, you know, a mindful response to either reconcile or own or just work through, and then if not, to to take a minute to invite exploration, yeah.

00:35:41.039 --> 00:35:43.920
Yes, and I love when you keep bringing it back to mindfulness.

00:35:44.079 --> 00:35:48.400
I love it because I'm always so curious about this and I wonder about the overlap.

00:35:48.639 --> 00:35:54.400
That's why I appreciated that you did that little exercise with me earlier with containment and mindfulness.

00:35:54.800 --> 00:35:58.480
Yeah, no, I think there is so much overlap, especially in that part of it.

00:35:58.559 --> 00:36:22.079
But I think in terms of it's one of the reasons I love mindfulness is I feel like it's like the frontline response, like in a on a day-to-day basis, as we're working through whatever it is we're working through, sometimes with a therapist on a bigger scale, sometimes just in our house with our kids, sometimes at work, so right, like whatever the setting is, sometimes in a relationship, like we may need to call in the experts, right?

00:36:22.320 --> 00:36:27.440
And then we may be able to get quite a bit done using our mindfulness tools, right?

00:36:27.920 --> 00:36:30.800
And then when you can tether both, even better, right?

00:36:31.039 --> 00:36:32.159
Yeah, that's a good point.

00:36:32.239 --> 00:36:33.360
I didn't think of it that way.

00:36:33.440 --> 00:36:40.320
I guess, like with containment and mindfulness, it is such a good, valuable, not even just beginning level.

00:36:40.400 --> 00:36:48.159
I mentioned this anytime those thoughts are coming at you or you're being persecuted, just keep revisiting this over and over.

00:36:48.400 --> 00:36:54.639
But the professional then may come in at a point where there's something bigger going on that's not in the mind.

00:36:54.800 --> 00:36:56.559
That's what we call the unconscious.

00:36:56.639 --> 00:36:58.639
And that's more of the psychodynamic approach.

00:36:58.719 --> 00:37:01.840
Is we don't always deal with things as at the manifest level.

00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:07.119
We like to slowly get below and see what's going on under the hood, if I could say it that way.

00:37:07.440 --> 00:37:08.320
Yeah, yeah.

00:37:08.559 --> 00:37:23.280
And I think there's so much, so much to that, because I think that at least in my own experience, mindfulness was a crucial skill for me in being able to tolerate some of those subconscious realizations, right?

00:37:23.679 --> 00:37:25.599
Whether with a therapist or on my own.

00:37:25.840 --> 00:37:31.599
Like, oh, this is actually how I'm acting in this situation, or this is how I view my myself.

00:37:31.760 --> 00:37:32.960
And it's humbling, right?

00:37:33.119 --> 00:37:34.800
To come to terms with a lot of those.

00:37:35.039 --> 00:37:37.519
Yeah, just the fact that you could say that is so impressive.

00:37:37.679 --> 00:37:41.280
You know, this is how I'm acting in this situation, right there.

00:37:41.440 --> 00:37:49.199
Like you're ahead of like, I don't want to put a percentage on it, but many people can't do that because now you're taking a bit of ownership, right?

00:37:49.920 --> 00:37:50.400
Yeah.

00:37:50.639 --> 00:37:51.199
Well, thanks.

00:37:51.280 --> 00:37:52.400
It's hard fucking.

00:37:54.880 --> 00:37:57.360
Well, people ask, like, can the narcissist change?

00:37:57.440 --> 00:37:59.199
That's like a common question, I get, right?

00:37:59.360 --> 00:37:59.440
Yeah.

00:37:59.679 --> 00:38:01.679
And the question is always like, who knows?

00:38:01.840 --> 00:38:06.480
But there are certain signs that that suggest if they could change or not.

00:38:06.559 --> 00:38:21.599
And that is one of the first signs is can they take any responsibility that they play a role in whatever problems are going on in their life or in their relationships, or that the fact that they were fired from their fourth job now, can they take any responsibility at all?

00:38:21.679 --> 00:38:26.719
And if the answer is no, then the prognosis for change is very limited.

00:38:27.519 --> 00:38:28.400
That's interesting.

00:38:28.480 --> 00:38:46.079
Thanks for bringing that up because I was curious about like if someone's listening right now and hearing a lot of tendencies that they're very, very familiar with, you know, and they're maybe noticing for the first time it's just coming, coming up through the subconscious into their consciousness that this is a reality for them in a relationship.

00:38:46.400 --> 00:38:54.639
What are some of the are there other signs or what are some of the other stresses that might be accompanying that relationship that would help them kind of connect the dots?

00:38:54.960 --> 00:39:03.360
Wait, so the question is if something that was maybe not so conscious is beginning to emerge, there's some recognition, right, that they slow down.

00:39:03.519 --> 00:39:06.000
This is part of like mindfulness, right?

00:39:06.079 --> 00:39:08.480
They're recognizing something, maybe, right?

00:39:09.360 --> 00:39:10.880
In a more regulated state.

00:39:11.039 --> 00:39:14.480
So the question is then something painful, I would imagine.

00:39:14.559 --> 00:39:15.119
Is that right?

00:39:15.280 --> 00:39:19.440
Like what something is beginning to emerge that's uncomfortable.

00:39:19.599 --> 00:39:21.920
And what do you the question is what do you do with that?

00:39:22.000 --> 00:39:23.119
Or what's the next yeah?

00:39:23.199 --> 00:39:24.800
I guess I was asking like three questions in one.

00:39:24.960 --> 00:39:30.320
So yeah, of course, first of all, how do you start to process that?

00:39:30.480 --> 00:39:40.239
Or like what other dots if they're curious and they're like, maybe this is, are there any other dots they could be connecting to help them clarify what they're looking at?

00:39:40.480 --> 00:39:42.480
Okay, let's think about that one first.

00:39:42.719 --> 00:39:46.880
So the first thing you need to do is go get a drink.

00:39:47.119 --> 00:39:48.159
No, I'm just kidding.

00:39:48.320 --> 00:39:50.960
That's because that's what people do, by the way, right?

00:39:51.039 --> 00:39:53.840
Is like you get something to get rid of it as quickly as possible.

00:39:54.719 --> 00:40:06.400
So one thing you could do actually is if you have a good friend or if you're in therapy, or you have a relationship with somebody, you know, that you feel is, you know, that there's enough trust there, you check in with somebody.

00:40:06.559 --> 00:40:13.039
You can say, hey, listen, I noticed something about myself, or I've been thinking about something, but I don't know if this is accurate.

00:40:13.199 --> 00:40:14.960
Do I tend to be a burden?

00:40:15.199 --> 00:40:16.239
Am I a burden?

00:40:16.480 --> 00:40:18.320
Like, do you feel that I'm too much?

00:40:18.480 --> 00:40:18.800
I don't know.

00:40:18.880 --> 00:40:22.719
I'm just making that part up, Lindsay, because I don't know exactly what's emerging.

00:40:22.960 --> 00:40:29.519
But one way to do is just to check in with people because you wanted to start to distinguish between what's a persecutory thought.

00:40:29.679 --> 00:40:33.199
Maybe I'm just being hard on myself and what's a reality.

00:40:33.360 --> 00:40:36.079
And then if you ask a couple people, right?

00:40:36.320 --> 00:40:37.440
Or here's another way.

00:40:37.519 --> 00:40:38.639
I just thought of this one.

00:40:38.800 --> 00:40:45.360
Let's say you get into an argument with somebody, but you do have this tucked away in your mind, this burgeoning awareness.

00:40:45.599 --> 00:40:53.599
Then you slow down and instead of getting angry because of what they did to you, you can ask them, instead of why do you behave that way?

00:40:53.760 --> 00:40:56.559
You could say, Hey, I'm just curious, how come you behaved?

00:40:56.639 --> 00:40:58.480
How come you got so angry at me?

00:40:58.719 --> 00:41:01.519
Was there something that I did that got you upset?

00:41:01.760 --> 00:41:12.960
That's really like if you could just do that, that seems very simple, but that would be monumental because now you're checking in with somebody, but you're checking in with yourself, to your point, Lindsay.

00:41:13.039 --> 00:41:17.280
Like to see, is this new awareness that I'm having, is it accurate?

00:41:17.440 --> 00:41:18.159
Did I do something?

00:41:18.239 --> 00:41:20.719
And the person may say, No, no, it was just me.

00:41:20.880 --> 00:41:24.480
I had a bad day at work and I was short and I got triggered.

00:41:24.639 --> 00:41:30.159
Or they may say, Yeah, you didn't realize it, but the way you just spoke to me was so condescending, I felt diminished.

00:41:30.320 --> 00:41:33.119
And they say, Oh, right, that's what I was just thinking.

00:41:33.280 --> 00:41:37.440
Or they may say, You're putting a demand on me to take care of something for you.

00:41:37.519 --> 00:41:39.599
It's like you're taking no responsibility.

00:41:39.760 --> 00:41:43.199
And then you'll say, Oh, maybe I am a little bit too much.

00:41:43.360 --> 00:41:45.519
Maybe this is the way it presents itself.

00:41:45.760 --> 00:41:48.239
So that's one way to do it is to check in.

00:41:48.400 --> 00:41:49.280
I don't know, what do you think?

00:41:49.360 --> 00:41:51.840
I'm just thinking out loud what to do with it, but what do you think?

00:41:52.079 --> 00:41:52.639
That makes sense.

00:41:52.719 --> 00:41:52.960
Yeah.

00:41:53.039 --> 00:41:59.519
I think that I think that there's so much value, like you just said, in in referencing someone else, right?

00:41:59.760 --> 00:42:05.119
Because I think sometimes we can get stuck in, like you said, maybe a more negative view of ourselves.

00:42:05.440 --> 00:42:06.880
Yeah, like a perspiratory thought.

00:42:06.960 --> 00:42:07.199
Yep.

00:42:07.360 --> 00:42:09.679
Yeah, worry about things that aren't aren't real.

00:42:09.840 --> 00:42:15.519
But I think being able to reference out and then also being able to just in the moment mindfully approach an interaction.

00:42:15.679 --> 00:42:17.679
In our house, we like to have redoes.

00:42:18.079 --> 00:42:19.519
Can I get a redo on that?

00:42:19.760 --> 00:42:31.840
You know, or so if if we've approached it and we get the feedback that maybe our tone was off or there was some other way we could have said something, asking to kind of repair in that moment can be so supportive.

00:42:32.159 --> 00:42:32.639
I like that.

00:42:32.800 --> 00:42:33.519
I like that.

00:42:33.679 --> 00:42:34.480
A redo.

00:42:34.800 --> 00:42:35.920
I'm going to borrow that.

00:42:36.000 --> 00:42:36.159
Okay.

00:42:36.400 --> 00:42:38.000
Can I add one little thing to it?

00:42:38.079 --> 00:42:38.239
Okay.

00:42:39.920 --> 00:42:48.400
So to repair, one thing that I find that's very valuable is to add in some recognition that you may have hurt somebody inadvertently, right?

00:42:48.480 --> 00:42:53.920
So you're not just asking for a redo like to make it magically go away, but there's some recognition.

00:42:54.000 --> 00:42:59.039
That's the validation, and that's part of containment, that word that I used earlier, right?

00:42:59.119 --> 00:43:00.960
That the first step is validating.

00:43:01.119 --> 00:43:02.559
So you'd have to validate that.

00:43:02.719 --> 00:43:07.360
Oh, maybe what I said was hurtful, or I imagine that made you feel kind of crappy.

00:43:07.519 --> 00:43:08.880
Can I get a redo on that?

00:43:09.039 --> 00:43:11.760
I didn't mean, or I don't want you to ever feel that way.

00:43:11.920 --> 00:43:14.000
So I would just add in maybe that other little piece.

00:43:14.159 --> 00:43:15.519
Yeah, 100% for sure.

00:43:15.679 --> 00:43:20.559
And I think I think that's good to define the process more fully because sometimes I just do say redo.

00:43:20.639 --> 00:43:33.519
But in our house, part of that is the recognition, whether it's in a look, right, or in a conversation where like, I'm sorry, that's not the way I wanted to show up in that moment, or that's not how I want to, you know, that's not the way I want to support you.

00:43:33.760 --> 00:43:37.760
Or, you know, did I say that in a way that was hurtful?

00:43:37.920 --> 00:43:38.000
Yes.

00:43:38.239 --> 00:43:42.239
And getting the feedback and then saying, okay, I'm so sorry.

00:43:42.400 --> 00:43:43.440
That's not what I wanted to do.

00:43:43.599 --> 00:43:45.920
Could we could we replay, you know, that moment?

00:43:46.239 --> 00:43:46.639
Yep.

00:43:46.880 --> 00:43:47.679
That's wonderful.

00:43:48.239 --> 00:43:53.280
Talk to me a little bit more about I know we're short on time, so I have so many questions.

00:43:53.760 --> 00:44:07.039
Let's let's explore for a minute if someone was in narcissistic household or like in a household where there were narcissistic patterns, what might be some of the ramifications for that person as a parent?

00:44:09.039 --> 00:44:09.280
Okay.

00:44:09.760 --> 00:44:12.000
Like if you experience that as a child.

00:44:12.239 --> 00:44:13.039
Oh, yes, I got it.

00:44:13.119 --> 00:44:13.440
I got it.

00:44:13.679 --> 00:44:24.719
And then you are now like in your own house parenting, and you're you're maybe like maybe the tendencies haven't come through quite as strong for you, but that's kind of the soup you were simmering in for a long time.

00:44:25.440 --> 00:44:30.159
What might be some of the patterns or tendencies that you might want to be mindful of as a parent?

00:44:30.480 --> 00:44:51.519
Yeah, so just again, like a prototypical example, because this is so common in people who have these narcissistic traits, is they grew up with a father who was overly domineering, controlling, and often left them feeling like especially in a father-son relationship, with a sense of powerlessness, because the father himself always needed to feel in control.

00:44:51.679 --> 00:45:01.599
That doesn't mean there was necessarily physical violence, it doesn't need to be, it's just a constant sort of wearing away at your confidence, right?

00:45:02.239 --> 00:45:02.559
Yeah.

00:45:02.880 --> 00:45:03.519
Constantly.

00:45:03.679 --> 00:45:09.280
So no matter what you do, you're not actually doing it right because the father always knows best, right?

00:45:09.519 --> 00:45:14.000
So now this kid grows up with a feeling of being quite powerless.

00:45:14.239 --> 00:45:17.920
So one way to deal with that is to feel quite powerful.

00:45:18.000 --> 00:45:23.199
And by the way, that's the grandiose sense of self again, the structure that holds the narcissist together.

00:45:23.440 --> 00:45:26.719
So he has now a son later in life or a daughter.

00:45:26.960 --> 00:45:27.679
It doesn't even matter.

00:45:27.920 --> 00:45:30.719
Gender doesn't matter because these things get repeated anyway.

00:45:30.800 --> 00:45:32.480
He could even do this with his wife.

00:45:32.639 --> 00:45:36.480
But let's say, for argument's sake, to go back to your example, he has a child.

00:45:36.800 --> 00:45:42.559
What he does without even knowing it is he's beginning to assert his own dominance over and over.00:45:42.719 --> 00:45:46.639


Now the kid starts to act out because he doesn't want to feel powerless.00:45:46.880 --> 00:45:49.119


So then he has to assert more power.00:45:49.280 --> 00:45:55.920


And it could even get to the point now there's tension in the relationship constantly, and they don't have a good relationship.00:45:56.079 --> 00:46:06.719


And sometimes things may even get physical when he's trying to force his child to do something his way, but but always not aware, thinking that my kid is just acting out.00:46:06.880 --> 00:46:08.880


Look at the way my kid misbehaves.00:46:09.039 --> 00:46:13.280


He's so defiant, he doesn't listen to anything I say, right?00:46:13.840 --> 00:46:23.679


So that's one way that it could get replicated later in life, is you inadvertently, without even knowing it, become the father that you had, right?00:46:23.760 --> 00:46:31.360


In order to get rid of a feeling of being powerless, because it'll of course it feels much better to be in control, you know.00:46:31.840 --> 00:46:33.199


Yeah, yeah.00:46:34.400 --> 00:46:39.360


I think again, let's just circling back to the idea of containment here as we close.00:46:39.519 --> 00:46:46.000


Like I think that story illustrates so well the importance of that concept, right?00:46:46.880 --> 00:46:48.800


Like that gentle awareness.00:46:48.960 --> 00:47:13.360


And I think as we work through those types of moments and find ourselves in situations where like we may not have responded to something in a way that's congruent with how we would like to be, or we're starting to just have this burgeoning awareness of how we are, you know, how we are showing up in relationship or with kids that we honor the moment of awareness.00:47:13.920 --> 00:47:18.480


Yeah, and that's just to use that word just for a moment, containment, right?00:47:18.719 --> 00:47:32.320


So in this example, I'm not sure exactly where you meant the containment was, but what's happening with the father, so there were two levels with the father, he is unable to contain a hurtful, painful feeling.00:47:32.559 --> 00:47:34.079


So he gets rid of it, right?00:47:34.239 --> 00:47:37.119


He makes somebody else feel powerless.00:47:37.440 --> 00:47:40.159


So that's where we come in, right, Lindsay?00:47:40.400 --> 00:47:55.119


Through mindfulness, or in my word, containment is that I contain the feeling, and I do it by way of not being upset with this guy, not saying he's doing something bad, but by slowly showing him, right?00:47:55.280 --> 00:48:08.719


Of course, of course, you would need to be in control of your son because it becomes so important to you to feel like you have uh like the all the power, but we just don't know why it's so important to have all the power with him.00:48:08.880 --> 00:48:10.559


So that's an act of containment.00:48:10.639 --> 00:48:18.719


Um I'm validating a need for him to do something, but at the same time, I'm trying to invite his curiosity to think about, huh?00:48:18.880 --> 00:48:20.480


Yeah, I wonder where this comes from.00:48:20.559 --> 00:48:21.840


Why do I need to do it this way?00:48:22.000 --> 00:48:25.679


Clearly, it's not working, it's not giving me the result that I want.00:48:25.920 --> 00:48:29.599


I'm not having a good relationship with my son, and that's what I really want.00:48:30.239 --> 00:48:31.119


Yeah, yeah.00:48:31.199 --> 00:48:33.360


And that it's like that moment, right?00:48:33.440 --> 00:48:36.239


It's like, again, because I'm working in moments.00:48:36.400 --> 00:48:42.079


It is like the moment when you have made a choice that is not moving you in the direction you want to go.00:48:42.239 --> 00:48:42.960


Yes, right?00:48:43.199 --> 00:48:44.639


Like I want a strong relationship.00:48:44.719 --> 00:48:48.159


You know, in the example we're using here, I want a strong relationship with my son.00:48:48.719 --> 00:48:57.119


This action, like when you can even just hold a minute of the dissonance between what you want and how that's playing out currently.00:48:57.360 --> 00:49:06.239


I feel like that's the powerful space where like you just plant a tiny little seed of change right there.00:49:06.320 --> 00:49:21.599


And you, and then you know, you like you're saying, you get the help that you need, or you work through some of the things that are coming up for you in a safe place, not like taking it out on your right, like we're not projecting on the kid, we're not asking the kid to carry this like generational burden forward.00:49:21.679 --> 00:49:25.440


We're like, no, no, no, no, no, that's actually gonna stop here, right?00:49:26.320 --> 00:49:33.840


That moment, that mindful moment, which we can then work on, work on in a containment safe space with a therapist.00:49:34.079 --> 00:49:37.679


I think those are the and just just can I add one thing, yeah.00:49:37.760 --> 00:49:40.239


Yeah, so much for bringing it back to moment.00:49:40.400 --> 00:49:49.840


I told you earlier that I really appreciate you describing mindfulness as moment, and that's all we can ask for in terms of helping somebody again.00:49:50.000 --> 00:49:51.760


Back to the process of change.00:49:51.920 --> 00:49:59.519


That's part of the process is to have a moment, and you have to respect and not get upset for anybody who's listening.00:49:59.760 --> 00:50:08.800


When you do this with somebody in your life and you have a good moment, anticipate that it will go, it will head south, you know, the next moment.00:50:08.960 --> 00:50:24.320


Okay, because that's part of the process, and that's what I see, and that's why therapy takes a while, because there are moments like this, but then they disappear and then they reappear, and we bring we slowly bring those moments to the fore when they're not there and we evoke a memory.00:50:24.400 --> 00:50:31.199


Hey, remember when you said you wanted to have, so now we're helping them have more of those moments so we could build on them.00:50:31.440 --> 00:50:38.159


But to your point, Lindsay, and I just want to emphasize so nobody gets frustrated because it's not always an upward trajectory of change, you know?00:50:38.239 --> 00:50:38.880


Yeah, you got it.00:50:38.960 --> 00:50:39.840


I I could stop there.00:50:40.079 --> 00:50:41.599


Oh no, I'm no, say that's your thought.00:50:41.840 --> 00:50:43.199


No, no, you got it, you got it.00:50:43.280 --> 00:50:44.480


You know how this works.00:50:44.639 --> 00:50:52.960


It's just like we have moments and then they disappear and then they reappear, and we can't get frustrated by the process because that's all part of the process.00:50:53.360 --> 00:50:54.559


Yes, yeah.00:50:54.880 --> 00:51:00.719


One of my clients this week, we were talking through a scenario that she was in learning to ride a bike.00:51:01.360 --> 00:51:07.920


And learning to ride a bike is challenging, and especially when you're little and you fall off a lot, you know?00:51:08.400 --> 00:51:12.960


But we were talking about how like small gains aren't negated.00:51:13.199 --> 00:51:19.039


So, like taking off one training wheel but not being able to take off both yet, that's still a win, right?00:51:19.199 --> 00:51:26.880


Just because you can't ride with both and you backtrack a little bit, that doesn't mean that doesn't mean you don't get to take the success of the one training wheel, right?00:51:27.360 --> 00:51:34.559


And I am in a situation where I'm working with that like growth mindset on a you know, on a much different level, right?00:51:34.639 --> 00:51:38.639


Riding a bike is very different than rearranging an entire relationship.00:51:39.280 --> 00:51:42.480


And also the it's a universal principle, right?00:51:42.559 --> 00:51:48.639


Is that like when we're making these gains, they're gonna come with moments where we're like struggling.00:51:49.039 --> 00:51:49.679


Yes, yes.00:51:50.159 --> 00:51:54.079


As we continue to engage, we over time can see the progress.00:51:54.239 --> 00:51:56.480


But in the moment, it's often kind of ugly.00:51:56.800 --> 00:51:58.480


No, listen, I said it earlier.00:51:58.559 --> 00:51:59.599


I love your metaphors.00:51:59.840 --> 00:52:02.000


One was with the park, remember Central Park.00:52:02.400 --> 00:52:06.320


Now you bring in a bike, something again, very close and dear to my heart.00:52:06.559 --> 00:52:11.119


So we can use that metaphor and say, in a way, it is as complicated as having a relationship.00:52:11.199 --> 00:52:16.320


Because let's say you want to ride your bike really fast and you want to get stronger on your bike.00:52:16.559 --> 00:52:18.639


Same thing, it's not an upward trajectory.00:52:18.719 --> 00:52:27.519


There'll be moments where you're training and you're doing well and you're competing and you're winning or you're doing, you know, and then you get sick or you get an injury.00:52:27.760 --> 00:52:31.440


You know, the sign of a true athlete, like a true relationship.00:52:31.599 --> 00:52:46.960


I'm not even just talking about sport right now, yeah, is to be able to tolerate those moments where the trajectory is no longer up, it could be down, and that's those are the hard moments, but those are the signs of a true relationship athlete, to stay with the metaphor.00:52:47.280 --> 00:52:48.400


Yeah, yeah.00:52:48.639 --> 00:52:56.480


And I mean, the thing that I like to reiterate is that you don't get resilience without those moments, right?00:52:56.559 --> 00:53:00.480


There's actually not a way to build resilience without them.00:53:00.719 --> 00:53:01.360


That's right.00:53:01.519 --> 00:53:04.800


And let's but let's give the caveat because I'm always anxious about this.00:53:05.039 --> 00:53:05.360


Yeah, yeah.00:53:05.599 --> 00:53:09.360


We're not suggesting to anybody to stay in a relationship where they're not happy.00:53:09.440 --> 00:53:10.639


You see that's 100%.00:53:11.119 --> 00:53:12.960


Just in case people are like, oh, Dr.00:53:13.039 --> 00:53:17.360


Mazella said if you're not having a good relationship, right, you should stick with it.00:53:17.519 --> 00:53:18.719


No, that's not what I'm saying.00:53:18.800 --> 00:53:23.119


We're just talking about to Lindsay's term, building up resiliency, right?00:53:23.440 --> 00:53:27.199


Yeah, no, thank you for clarifying that because I I wouldn't want to send that message either.00:53:27.599 --> 00:53:35.519


What I what I do think is that it in my mind that the moment of resilience there is like doing the hard thing of exiting, right?00:53:35.599 --> 00:53:48.960


Or doing the hard thing of changing the relationship through therapeutic intervention or seeking a different reality than the one you're currently experiencing, not staying in a space that's not safe.00:53:49.280 --> 00:53:50.559


And that's not changing, also.00:53:50.800 --> 00:53:51.840


That's not changing, right?00:53:52.079 --> 00:53:52.320


Yeah.00:53:52.480 --> 00:53:53.840


No, thank you for clarifying that.00:53:54.159 --> 00:53:57.519


Of course, and thanks for articulating that addendum to it.00:53:57.840 --> 00:53:59.599


Do you have time for one more question?00:53:59.840 --> 00:54:01.199


Yeah, please go for it.00:54:01.440 --> 00:54:01.760


Okay.00:54:02.079 --> 00:54:05.119


Talk to me a little bit about healthy boundaries.00:54:05.280 --> 00:54:14.880


Because I think we've we've spent a lot of time kind of identifying these edges that are going to feel sharp and rough and the relationships that by nature have very few boundaries.00:54:15.119 --> 00:54:27.360


So, what are some of the things you teach your clients or you work to like kind of educate people on around what a healthy boundary looks like and how to consistently kind of hold those for yourself?00:54:27.679 --> 00:54:29.840


This is this is a really important question.00:54:29.920 --> 00:54:36.480


You know, I've spoken so much on my own podcast about boundaries because I'm not a big fan of them, right?00:54:36.800 --> 00:54:45.679


Because people sometimes misunderstand what a boundary is and they think that they have to like push their loved one away if they don't speak to them in the right way.00:54:45.920 --> 00:54:52.480


So I like to try to bring people together, but uh I'm sort of rethinking it as I was just listening to your question.00:54:53.519 --> 00:55:05.519


If there's any kind of verbal abuse or physical abuse in the relationship, and my now in my perspective, that's an important and a very important time to create a healthy boundary.00:55:05.760 --> 00:55:07.760


So just like a really quick example.00:55:07.920 --> 00:55:14.719


So I treat people who, you know, sometimes personality disorders, they could be moderately disturbed, I mean, and quite demanding.00:55:14.800 --> 00:55:19.280


And there was a fellow who was texting me in between sessions, you know, they get very upset sometimes.00:55:19.360 --> 00:55:20.719


That's a separation, by the way.00:55:20.800 --> 00:55:25.840


It's a very big sensitivity with people who, you know, with not who have these narcissistic traits.00:55:26.079 --> 00:55:29.440


You ended the session, I wasn't done yet, you don't care.00:55:29.599 --> 00:55:31.199


What kind of therapist are you?00:55:31.440 --> 00:55:36.000


Like a barrage of these text messages, like pages of text messages for days.00:55:36.159 --> 00:55:39.199


And finally I had to tell them, listen, you need to knock it off.00:55:39.440 --> 00:55:40.639


No more text messaging.00:55:40.719 --> 00:55:43.280


If you have something to say, we'll book a second appointment.00:55:43.440 --> 00:55:47.199


You know, you come in and we work on this, but you can't treat me this way.00:55:47.360 --> 00:55:48.800


So no more text messaging.00:55:48.960 --> 00:55:50.159


So there's a boundary.00:55:50.320 --> 00:55:54.320


And in my opinion, that's a healthy boundary because back to the word containment.00:55:54.400 --> 00:55:58.960


It's a different type of containment, but this guy could not contain his aggressivity.00:55:59.199 --> 00:56:01.440


It was spilling out all over the place.00:56:01.599 --> 00:56:03.039


And I don't need to take that.00:56:03.119 --> 00:56:05.199


I mean, I don't need to be abused in that way.00:56:05.360 --> 00:56:08.239


I'm just trying to have a peaceful evening after I'm done with the session.00:56:08.320 --> 00:56:09.360


That was a good session.00:56:09.519 --> 00:56:11.840


Those some sometimes are the hardest, by the way.00:56:12.000 --> 00:56:12.880


The good sessions.00:56:12.960 --> 00:56:16.559


We spoke about that in the other episode, accepting something good, right?00:56:17.119 --> 00:56:18.719


So that would be a healthy boundary.00:56:18.800 --> 00:56:24.559


So for anybody who's listening, you'll have your own tolerance for what's acceptable, right?00:56:24.719 --> 00:56:26.719


My tolerance tends to be a little higher.00:56:26.880 --> 00:56:35.840


Like, I don't mind, you know, getting, you know, I mean, that's part of my job is I take in a lot of this aggression or powerlessness, made to feel useless.00:56:36.000 --> 00:56:44.159


But we, because I know on the other end, I'm going to eventually be able to contain that myself, hold it for them, and give it back in a way that we could work on it.00:56:44.400 --> 00:56:46.639


But everybody has to have their own threshold.00:56:46.719 --> 00:56:52.079


But an appropriate boundary in this example would be hey, what's going on here?00:56:52.239 --> 00:56:53.280


You need to cut that out.00:56:53.440 --> 00:56:55.039


I said to him, you need to knock it off.00:56:55.199 --> 00:56:56.559


I'm not doing this anymore.00:56:56.880 --> 00:56:57.199


Yeah.00:56:57.440 --> 00:56:59.039


No, thank you for sharing that.00:56:59.280 --> 00:57:13.920


And I really would love for everybody to take a minute to listen to the episode we recorded because as Anthony mentioned, we had a really great conversation about this idea of not being able to accept good things.00:57:14.159 --> 00:57:14.320


Yes.00:57:14.559 --> 00:57:30.159


And I know we have listeners who find themselves in that situation where they really want the good thing mentally, but like when it actually comes to like finding them and they're feeling it, that they're having they're having a hard time letting it come to them fully.00:57:30.400 --> 00:57:38.000


Yeah, and we looked at like maybe two or three different reasons why that may be very challenging for again for somebody who has these narcissistic traits.00:57:38.239 --> 00:57:52.719


Hey, Lindsay, let me say one more thing that may be helpful to your listeners, which is in terms of a boundary, yeah, this is probably more common, which is well, no, probably people do get these text messages, by the way, or they get sent a bunch of memes these days, you know, like how horrible you are.00:57:52.960 --> 00:58:04.960


But another one is a patient came in and I left him in the waiting area for too long because my clock was about 30 seconds off and he was very hurt, but he didn't talk about being hurt that I left him in the waiting area for the appointment.00:58:05.199 --> 00:58:07.440


Instead, he told me to change my clock.00:58:07.679 --> 00:58:10.079


You know, the clock was off by 30 seconds.00:58:10.239 --> 00:58:15.119


So after this perseverated for a few sessions, and he was really surprised that I didn't change my clock.00:58:15.199 --> 00:58:19.840


I said to him, Did you really think I was going to change my clock because you told me to?00:58:20.079 --> 00:58:21.119


See, that's a boundary.00:58:21.280 --> 00:58:23.280


In other words, you're not pushing me around.00:58:23.440 --> 00:58:27.039


You see, I'm not going to just do something because you tell me to do it.00:58:27.199 --> 00:58:28.559


Instead, we're going to talk about it.00:58:28.639 --> 00:58:32.800


So let's talk about what it was like sitting in that waiting room for 30 seconds.00:58:32.880 --> 00:58:34.000


What did you imagine?00:58:34.239 --> 00:58:41.119


And then we could start getting into how he felt I gave another patient the priority over him and I forgot about him.00:58:41.280 --> 00:58:47.760


But we couldn't do that until I told him, What, you think I'm going to because he was holding out hope that he could control me.00:58:47.840 --> 00:58:50.159


And if he could control me, we wouldn't have to deal.00:58:50.320 --> 00:58:53.199


We'd never have to talk about those other painful feelings.00:58:53.440 --> 00:58:53.920


What?00:58:54.159 --> 00:58:56.800


Yeah, with the discomfort that he was feeling around it.00:58:56.960 --> 00:58:57.280


Yeah.00:58:58.719 --> 00:58:59.039


Yeah.00:58:59.119 --> 00:59:00.559


Oh, that's such a good example.00:59:00.719 --> 00:59:01.119


Thank you.00:59:01.360 --> 00:59:01.599


Sure.00:59:01.920 --> 00:59:04.639


Well, this has been so insightful for me.00:59:04.800 --> 00:59:09.920


Thank you so much for your perspective and for all of the wisdom that you shared today with our listeners.00:59:10.000 --> 00:59:11.199


I really thank you.00:59:11.360 --> 00:59:13.519


Thank you for very thoughtful questions.00:59:13.679 --> 00:59:14.880


I really appreciate it.00:59:14.960 --> 00:59:16.559


And I appreciate you giving me the time.00:59:16.639 --> 00:59:21.199


And I'm really excited to hear that I was the first psychodynamic psychotherapist on the show.00:59:21.280 --> 00:59:22.559


So yes, 100%.00:59:22.960 --> 00:59:25.440


Can you share with our listeners where they can find you?00:59:25.760 --> 00:59:27.199


Yeah, I mean, it's really simple.00:59:27.280 --> 00:59:29.119


It's just everything's on my website.00:59:29.199 --> 00:59:35.039


So if you want to look at my pod, listen to the podcast on my video channel, all of that is at Dr.00:59:35.199 --> 00:59:35.840


Mazella.00:59:36.000 --> 00:59:36.960


It's just D-R.00:59:37.280 --> 00:59:40.960


And then my last name, M-A-Z-Z-E-L-L-A.com.00:59:41.119 --> 00:59:46.159


And maybe Lindsay, if you could drop it in the show notes, that'd be wonderful for people who don't have paper and pen handy.00:59:46.400 --> 00:59:47.920


Do people still use paper and pen?00:59:48.000 --> 00:59:49.360


I don't even know if they're I do.00:59:49.519 --> 00:59:53.280


I mean, yeah, good for you, me too.00:59:54.159 --> 00:59:56.000


Thank you again for your time.00:59:56.320 --> 00:59:57.519


Thank you, Lindsay.00:59:57.760 --> 00:59:58.320


Bye.00:59:58.719 --> 00:59:59.280


Bye.01:00:00.239 --> 01:00:02.159


Thanks for listening to the Stress Nanny.01:00:02.239 --> 01:00:07.760


If you found today's episode helpful, be sure to share it with a friend who could use a little extra calm in their week.01:00:07.920 --> 01:00:10.480


And if you have a minute, I'd love for you to leave a review.01:00:10.559 --> 01:00:13.760


It helps other parents find the show and join us on this journey.01:00:14.000 --> 01:00:18.960


For more tools and support, head over to www.thestressnanny.com.01:00:19.119 --> 01:00:21.280


Remember, you don't have to do stress alone.01:00:21.360 --> 01:00:25.360


Together we can raise kids who know how to navigate life with confidence and ease.01:00:25.519 --> 01:00:29.199


Until next time, take a deep breath and give yourself some grace.