Self-Care During Divorce

Lindsay Miller  0:23  
Hey there. This is Lindsay. Thanks so much for joining me here on the podcast to pick up some tools to help your family stress less. This episode is another conversation with Jacqueline Newman, divorce attorney from New York City. I was so fortunate to be able to catch up with her again and she shares wisdom and insight to help normalize what everyone is going through, as well as to support families who are navigating divorce after an already stressful couple of years. I hope you enjoy the episode and pick up some tools for either helping your own family or supporting loved ones. This episode is brought to you by the essential calendar, a family friendly wall calendar that you can find at www dot decentral calendar.com. Now on to the episode. 

Welcome to the Stress Nanny podcast. I'm your host Lindsay Miller and I'm delighted that you're here with me today to join us in a conversation about how to stress less. We're going to be focusing on divorce again and I'm so fortunate to have Jacqueline Newman back. Jacqueline is our divorce expert. She's a New York City based divorce lawyer and experienced matrimonial law expert as managing partner of a top tier Fifth Avenue Manhattan law firm. She focuses exclusively on divorce and her practice runs the gamut from prenups for high net worth people contemplating marriage to high conflict matrimonial litigation, a law school lecturer and New York legal education instructor Jacqueline sheds her fearsome advocate persona to teach mediation and collaborative law as alternatives to lengthy courtroom roles. She's coming here today with her wisdom and advice to help us understand how divorce is changing, and what we can do to navigate divorce culture a little more smoothly. Jacqueline, thanks so much for joining me.

Jacqueline Newman  2:02  
Thanks so much for having me. It was a great intro.

Lindsay Miller  2:05  
It's good to have you back. Now the last time we chatted, the book was just kind of hitting the shelves and people were starting to read it. I know, I've gotten a lot of great feedback from that episode and how the book has given people a lot to think about that they haven't really even considered when it comes to divorce.

Jacqueline Newman  2:23  
Yeah, no, I mean, I've been really pleased with that as well. I think that, you know, it's interesting, you know, obviously, it was written pre COVID and came out pre COVID. And what's been very interesting to me is that, you know, as it, you know, that we entered COVID. And it became, you know, one of the things that the advice I gave to people when they were calling me during the COVID period, especially in the beginning, and they were saying, you know, get me out of here. I was of a mindset at the time, and still sort of am that, you know, just because like this is a hard, stressful time, like no one's ever gone through it. It's unprecedented, you know, don't allow the stress that you're experiencing in this very, very bizarre time be something that dictates the way you want to move forward in your marriage. I was very much especially the beginning of like, let's all take a breath, let's all relax. That's like, you know, just kind of see what's going on. It's been a while now, I think a lot of people have done a lot of breathing. And so now we're in a situation where, you know, it's definitely moving forward. But the good thing about the book is one of the pieces of advice I used to give to people, anyone who would say they want to get divorces, you need to become educated. You know, people throw around the divorce, where it's so easily, you know, they get upset about something they say, You know what, let's get divorced. And I'm always like, well slow it, slow it down and understand what that actually means. And so the fact that the book was out, I was able to be in a situation of saying, You know what, read what divorce means. Because for those that read the book, the first couple chapters are all about pretty much making sure you want to get the worst and Well, I wouldn't say talking you out of it, but definitely putting you that test to make sure this is really the path you want to move forward on.

Lindsay Miller  3:48  
Yeah, yeah, that's such a good insight. Because I think there are a lot of times during this COVID pandemic, and in general, like the recovery period that we're in, where the stress levels are just escalated, I mean, sky high, and all, all the opportunities for conflict escalate when stress levels escalate, right?

Jacqueline Newman  4:09  
Oh, absolutely. And not only that, but I mean, you also had this fear of the unknown, which causes a lot of anxiety and everyone and you know, while again, I think that we're kind of hopefully coming to the end of that was a very scary period. And, you know, you also had political unrest, and you had people making political statements with this, and you had, you know, children that were home and the unknown situation with them. And you had people that, you know, job insecurity. I mean, there was like, every it was a perfect storm on so many levels. And, you know, look, that's hard to weather, you know, some people did, and some people cannot strong report and other people, not so much. Yeah,

Lindsay Miller  4:42  
yeah. So are you seeing now like an influx of people who are like, okay, it's settled down, I'm ready. Like, let's do this thing. It's time to get a divorce. Are you seeing people who are like, Oh, actually, I can kind of manage this now that some of this stress is abating or maybe it's a mix

Jacqueline Newman  4:57  
of both. It's probably a mix of both. I Definitely, I mean, we are busy, like very, very busy. And almost every divorce attorney I know right now is pretty busy. Because I think that you know, especially, you know, we deal a lot in the high net worth, and it really was a bad time to get divorced and a high net worth, because most of your assets were in a business or real estate, and you know, and your income, if you were doing really well, it's like, don't trust that. And if you were doing really poorly, you know, the other side might not trust that. And so it was kind of, you know, my advice to a lot of my clients, but sit still, you know, unless you need to do anything, especially again, with the kids being all over the place. And the uncertainty, I was like, let's all just like not do anything until like settles down. And now as you said, you know, things are settling down. And so a lot of people are like, Okay, I taken your advice, I waited, and now I'm ready to get out. So it is definitely obviously a better time. But yeah, we're all very, very busy right now, because of that, and people are also fighting about, you know, during it, there was fights about relocation, now we're in a situation people are starting to fight about, you know, getting tested on getting the vaccines, you know, once it becomes, okay, for younger children, that's going to be a whole nother slew, I'm sure of litigation, because you're gonna, you know, you can't just get like one shot and be done. You know, it's like one of those things, there's not a lot of compromise you're either doing or not.

Lindsay Miller  6:08  
Yeah, yeah, no, those are really insightful points. Also, I mean, I'm curious, what are the top priorities right now, for people? Is it more the relocation like, Are people still kind of trying to sort out, hey, I want to live here. I used to live here. But now that I've had this time, away from the city, or wherever I'm in a position where I just I don't want to go back to that, or is it more around? Like, are you dealing with all those things all at once? Or are there some that are a little bit higher priority for people?

Jacqueline Newman  6:36  
So the answer is, yes, yes, yes. And we're dealing with all of it. I mean, you definitely have the people with the relocation issues, you know, and schools are now open. You know, this was, you know, a lot of people in New York City pay very, very expensive private schools, you know, 6070 $80,000. And, you know, you have a lot of parents that are said, Well, I'm not going to pay that if you're in my living room. And so especially when people relocated, and, you know, people did enjoy the suburbs, and they enjoyed the lawn, and, you know, and some people missed the city, but other people did it, you know, and there still is the fear of, you know, New York City, well, we're on our way back, no doubt, we're not fully there. You know, there is a lot of fear of homelessness, there's a lot of fear of more, you know, the streets not being so great. There are a lot of kids, as I said, that didn't come back to the schools are in a certain circuit circumstance. So it's, you know, people are mixed, and it's very, very difficult. People got used to do different custody arrangements. And that's another thing and, you know, you had people that were traveling a ton, and so they may have agreed to certain arrangements, and now they're not traveling in the same way, or people are learning to zoom in a different way. You don't have to be at every meeting, I mean, offices or, you know, so many people are still hanging. So I mean, as much as you know, we're all moving forward, we're still a little, you know, we're still where we are, and we're not fully, you know, not everybody's fully in the same place. So we are fighting about that we're fighting about the former location perspective, you know, part of the issue we're fighting a lot about, I'm having issues are is in regards to the finances and businesses that were valued pre pandemic. And now what do we do? You know, is this just a blip? And are they going to come back? Are they not real estate or so you know, real estate in New York City is coming back, but it's not where it was. And so what happens then do you buy at the bottom of the market or what you see to be the bottom of the market or not? That's becoming an issue. And you know, and just general job security and support and all of that stuff, like people still just don't feel fully secure. And so they're concerned to make commitments?

Lindsay Miller  8:24  
Yeah. Yeah. And that makes a lot of sense. And what are you telling people like as they're coming in, and you said, there, you have the people who are like, Okay, I read the book, I waited, I gave it some time. And you're like, Okay, and we're still dealing with all this uncertainty? What's your advice? So if someone's listening in they're like, Okay, she just described exactly what I you know, exactly what I'm navigating. Like, I'm I feel uncertainty around my finances, I still feel like real estate is dicey. And I'm not ready to invest, or, I'm not sure we can support two households right now, you know, whatever it looks like, what are you? What are you telling people?

Jacqueline Newman  8:58  
Yeah, you know, it's very difficult, we're trying really hard to get creative on certain things like so for an example, with real estate, I have a case right now where, you know, I represent the spouse that's going to ultimately be leaving the the apartment, and you know, there's going to be a buyout and my client is taking a position that I don't want to be bought out at the bottom of the market. So we're coming up with this idea that if this apartment gets sold in three years, there's a tail to it, he'll get some sort of kick of whatever happens afterwards. So if there really, we really are at the bottom of the market, then fine, we'll acknowledge that. And so there's, you know, we're trying to come up with creative ways to kind of address the uncertainty, but still allow people to move on with their lives. Because at this point, you know, me telling people to sit still, I think I'm, I think I'm at the end of the tail end of you being able to make that comment at this point. And so I think that people are like, this is where we are. And you know, it may not be different in a year from now, maybe a little better, maybe not, but I'm not waiting anymore. And so in those circumstances, we start moving forward. And we have I mean, the courts are so backed up that we're getting trial dates, you know, years from now, which is also real. The unfortunate and so difficult for them to it's a tough spot. And I tell clients that too. I say, Listen, you're not getting your trial date for a really long time. So where does that put you? And that, you know, can impact the way that someone wants to move forward?

Lindsay Miller  10:13  
Yeah, those are all things that are pretty significant. Yeah. In terms of outcome and the way that you roll with it. During the process of litigation, I imagine. What are some of the ways that is mediation? I know, that's one of your focuses. And we talked about that last time. Is that something that's coming into play more now? Because the courts are so backed up? Like, can you move through your mediation more quickly? And like, with less red tape than you can?

Jacqueline Newman  10:40  
Yeah, absolutely. So mediation, you know, you're controlling the timetable. You know, you don't have the courts, you know, barking at you. So yeah, people have definitely been opting for mediation, the courts are actually putting in mediation programs. So I have a few of those going on right now, which are great, which was actually I'm pretty sure it was in the works before there COVID. But it's definitely getting pushed through more. So now. So I do think that and I really do believe that's going to be more the future. You know, we have a lot of office, we do a lot of mediations via zoom, you know, everybody's comfortable in their pajamas and kind of going forward, as opposed to the formality of court. So I am, I mean, I've always encouraged it, but I'm definitely encouraging it more with the idea that listen, you know, you're not going to see a court date for a very long time. And if you really want to move forward with this case, at least explore it, as opposed to people in the past who may have been like, I'm just not interested. So yeah, I think it's I think it's gonna move forward.

Lindsay Miller  11:32  
What are you seeing in terms of family stress during the process of divorce itself? Like, what are the things that kids are navigating? What are the things parents are kind of shouldering and I know, you're such a big advocate of self care for all parties, involved in divorce and caring for yourself so that you can show up for your kids, so that you can show up for other people? What are you kind of what are you seeing? And what are you telling people around that right now?

Jacqueline Newman  11:57  
Yeah, so I mean, I feel like stress levels are at an all time high, I really, you know, I mean, we're all just so exhausted, I think we're just exhausted from everything that has happened. And, you know, also, I mean, you're so exhausted, because this is the method of communication now. And it's exactly my eyes, I usually try to limit my like, zooms two resumes a day, because otherwise my eyes get all glassy and weird and uncomfortable. And this, you know, important children. I mean, even the kids that are my kids are in school now. But they're still doing a lot on their laptops like so I mean, the screen has become so much. I mean, it's always been an issue, obviously. But now it's, you know, encouraged because this is the way that we're communicating. So, and I think that makes you exhausted. And I think when everybody's exhausted, and I think those that are working from home, we talk all the time, and there's no, the boundaries are gone. I personally was never great with boundaries, it's not as big of a deal for me. But most people, it's a very big issue. You know, you don't know when your day ends and begins. And so you add all that together. It's very, very stressful times. And I think for children, they're also in especially that they just went back to school, I mean, you're hearing more and more about kids that are having so much social anxiety, it's like, they forgot how to communicate with each other. And, you know, I have so many of my clients who I'm a big advocate of children being in therapy during divorce, and parents for that matter. And so many of my clients, like, I cannot find a therapist for my kids, like, they don't exist anymore, everyone. I mean, it's definitely the practice to go into. And I will tell you, I've made some phone calls for clients of mine, and they're like, I wish I could help you, but and, you know, they're very nice, everyone's nice and saying, Well, you know, try this person, try this person, every person you try. I mean, it's just crazy how you cannot find child therapist right now. So I think that's really problematic, because you have these kids adjusting, they haven't really learned in the same way for the last year, you know, the stress levels are very high on them. And so it's really, it's tough, you know, and then you have parents who are just again, trying to adjust to all of it and, you know, the stress of Do you let a kid you know, be social in certain circumstances versus not one of my partner's his daughter is on a gymnastics team. And he's home now, because some kid on the gymnastics team that COVID And so everybody's nervous. And the trick, you know, it's just such a domino effect, the amount of people that it impacts that it adds so much extra layer to the stress. And if you have teenagers who want to be social and have been waiting so long, that they're not going to be as careful and when they come home, and then maybe infect a younger sibling who's not vaccinated and older grandparent or even, you know, a parent who now has to go to the office. And so now what happens? I mean, it's very, very hard to navigate. I mean, we are really working on like five dimensional chess right now. And it's

Lindsay Miller  14:27  
dimensional chess. That's a good way of putting it. Yeah, it really is. And like you said, because one thing is a domino effect, it just totally impacts everything else. And I think the level of exhaustion that we're seeing, like you mentioned, I mean, it can't be understated like it's just crazy. And having having your divorce stress on top of all of that having separation stress on top of all that whatever that looks like, like it's just a lot for anyone to navigate. Right.

Jacqueline Newman  14:57  
And I think coping mechanisms are less Because again, because you're exhausted, because you don't have the time to do therapy, or you're not connecting in therapy over zoom. I mean, so many of the things that people used to do, and it is better, but you think about all the things people would do to relax, you know, they go out to dinner, they see movies, they do all these social events. But if you have anxiety about being in large crowds, and all these sort of things, you can't do that. And so you're becoming isolated, you can't do the things you're normally wanting to do to relieve stress. But yet, there's more stress in your life. So I mean, it's really, it's, we're just in a tough spot. We're gonna get through it. I'm very optimistic, and we will look back and not understand how we survived it. But we will all survive it. But it's tough right now. There's no question.

Lindsay Miller  15:41  
Yeah, yeah. One of the things that you reminded me of was some research I was doing the other day, and it was an art journal article, it was talking about how when we're under stress, our tendency is to kind of withdraw to conserve resources, whether that's time, energy, money, you know, whatever it is, but we kind of pull back, when in reality, like you were saying, our stress levels are higher than ever. And that actually means we need additional support, new ideas, other things to help us manage it. But the tendency is to kind of withdraw, which doesn't serve anyone really. And so we have to overcome that tendency, which I think we all have at this point to be like another, you know, like setback or another quarantine or another, you know, whatever it is, and then say like, okay, and I'm still going to reach out, or I'm going to ask for help here or I'm going to even if this person is not available, look for help here.

Jacqueline Newman  16:29  
Yeah, my daughter has a shirt that it's funny. It didn't register with me until now she has this big a sweatshirt I said, and it's a picture of a battery. And it says my social battery's low. And it's really like, it's one of those shirts that she probably had it for a long time. And I don't know if I noticed it, but I looked at it. I was like, I totally get that. It's just like, I fully appreciate that certain way I didn't before. But that's it. I mean, people's social batteries are low. A crunch is tired. Like truly tired. Yeah. So yeah, I don't know. You know, it's funny. It's like you meet people, I met someone recently, and I'm not particularly tall. And I met someone and they were like, I thought you were so much fun. I was like, how funny that I've known you for so long. And which I felt like I've known you for so long. I realize I met you during the pandemic, and you had no idea if I had legs. Like that's a crazy thought. Like, I have so many clients I've never met, I'm dealing with the most personal issues in their lives. And I've never met them. Some of them I've never seen, like I do a lot of on phone calls. I mean, it's pretty insane. If you think of that. Yeah. No,

Lindsay Miller  17:31  
no, that's true. That's funny. I had a similar experience the other day where I met a friend for lunch. And I was like, we've been working together closely for a couple of years now. And I was like, You're, you're super tall. I had no idea, you know, because she was like, we've actually never met in person halfway. And we felt like long lost friends, you know, because we felt because so connected over zoom, you know, we're our phone calls, but we hadn't met in person. No, it's an interesting thing, like, the intimate details that you deal with in terms of people's lives and circumstances, to have all of that, but yeah, not have that personal connection, that has to be super stressful during the process for you know,

Jacqueline Newman  18:07  
I feel like it was sort of one of those things that we didn't no different. I mean, we do different, but like, it's just what was happening, and the options weren't there. But it is interesting, and I was actually gonna be of young associates in my office and to try to teach the nuance of communication, which is something that feels very natural, when you've been doing it for a long time. But you know, in a divorce circumstance to know how to, you know, I always talk about, you know, people sit on the opposite desk, and when they cry, I keep my tissues behind my computer screen. And when I get them, one of the reasons I keep them out of my own reach. So it gives them time for me to go get them bring them over, and it gives them time to collect themselves. And I purposely do it because I want to give them that, you know, seven or eight seconds of me getting the tissues and bringing it over. It's something I've been doing for years. Purposely, like people always like, why don't you get the tissues closer? I was like, No, that's like, there's a reason for this. Yeah, but those are kind of things you can do on the phone, you can do over zoom, like I had a client crying over zoom. And it's like, I couldn't do anything. And it was so hard. Because even I could sign the kind of relationship I could be like, I wish I could hug you like you don't say that to your client at this moment. So, you know, it was one of those things. It was real. And it's one of the first times this happened, and I was real. I was like looking for my tissues thinking like, I don't have that move right now. And it was hard, it was very, very hard. And it really like resonated for me and I had an associate watching and I thought to myself, like this is really a good example of why this is so difficult. So ya know, it's it's really learning a new skill set on how to do this this way. But hopefully, again, I'm hoping very much it's a temporary skill set, but I don't know if it will be

Lindsay Miller  19:37  
Yeah, no, I hope so too. I think they'll the point in both this scenario and the one with your daughter, you know, and what you brought up before is important to kind of reiterate this idea that what used to be maybe a soothing or calming thing social interaction is now like a heightened stressful thing and a lot of instances and like going out if we're around people we have like a level of fear or concern? Or like, do I wear a mask? Do I not shut out? You know, is this restaurant, okay? Are these tables, just the barrage of thoughts that we have around our own personal safety in connection with other people, when so often before that connection was something that was so invigorating or soothing or you know, just relaxing, and there are very few spaces in life now, where we really relax. Right,

Jacqueline Newman  20:23  
right. Yeah. And I would say even on top of that, now you have, you know, you never knew if people have the same political, you know, you always say you don't talk about politics or religion, you know, like, you just don't do that in the beginning. And yet, so you knew that, but now, you know, there's a whole new layer of things that people feel very strongly about, you know, COVID protocols. I mean, obviously, there's, you know, the medical, I mean, there's a medical science of it. And now there's like, a whole new thing for people to debate about. And, you know, I was thinking, you know, I was talking to a client of mine, and I was talking about trying to push my clients start dating again, because I think that would really help her get through this process. But she just knew there was might be someone else out there that even could possibly be redeeming. But she was like, How do I date at this point? You know, and she was really talking about it not even she's like, so am I supposed to meet this total stranger? And what if they show up with a mask or without a mask? Like, that's immediate judgment for me and this whole thing? And she's like, What did they say something that, you know, she's very, she feels very strongly about, you know, mask wearing, and she's very, you know, and so she's like, if there is not a mask, if I don't see a ring of a rubber band of the mask on their wrists, I'm going to know that they don't wear it. I was like, Oh, my God, like, what is a hard process to begin with? So many extra layers? And yeah, it makes it I mean, I guess it can give you that camaraderie, which would be nice. But it's it's difficult, and I'm sure there are not many first dates that it doesn't come up, you know, that is now the topic.

Lindsay Miller  21:44  
Yeah, no, that's a good point. Also, just the, the, how it's permeated all social interaction, those kinds of logistical decisions or principles to sit, you know, however, you look at it, you know, with mask wearing or with quarantining, you know, when it's appropriate to and when it's not, or we don't have to worry about this contact? Or we do or just all of those things come into play at? Yeah, at a time when stress levels are already heightened. And when people feel really strongly about exhausted thinking

Jacqueline Newman  22:12  
about it.

Lindsay Miller  22:16  
I know I You're like, totally Are you talk to me about what you're seeing in terms of separation versus divorce? Like, are you seeing people say like, Okay, if the court can't get us in for a year and a half, let's just separate now. And then. So then are you putting together Separation Agreements, or that's not even happening? Because you can't get into court? Like, what is? What is changing about separation and divorce?

Jacqueline Newman  22:38  
So I think that, yeah, I think that there are more people because we can't move as quickly as people would like them to I'm definitely doing a lot more guarantee agreements that are allowing the parties to separate because very often now, our position or my position usually is nobody leaves the home until we have a parenting agreement in place. And so that's really, I'd say, more. So what's happening, I have a bunch of those that are being drafted, like as we speak, because I want to give people the ability to not live in the same home anymore if they don't want to. So we're doing a bunch of those, and they will ultimately move us into Separation Agreements, I think, you know, pre COVID, I mean, the courts were never particularly fast because of just being so backed up. But now we're just in a whole new level of slowness. But I would probably I would have said, like back in the day, we probably would have filed for court things, we would have done things a little faster. But now we're just not willing to wait on it. And I think also because stress levels are higher in the home, if you're already, you know, starting off in a stress place, you're adding divorce to it and everything. It's like, Let's separate you so we're not making things worse than they have to be especially again, you know, obviously there are kids involved, which is why we're doing a parenting agreement. Like, let's let's try to minimize stress for your children in all circumstances, but especially when they're in a stressful one already. So yeah, I'm seeing a lot more of that. Yeah.

Lindsay Miller  23:52  
That makes sense. What are you saying to parents who are worried about the stress levels of their kids? Because you're saying like therapy appointments are totally backed up? There's just not accessibility? How, what simple things? Are you encouraging parents to do to kind of support well being for themselves and for kids during this time?

Jacqueline Newman  24:08  
Yeah, I mean, a lot of communication, I think, a lot of justifying that, you know, what your feeling is totally normalizing a lot of it. You know, I think one of the things that's happening is that, you know, the kids, depending on ages are looking for their parents, for surety, like they want to know what's going to happen, because that's what you know, mom and dad are supposed to know everything. And so you're supposed to have that answer. And I think what was happening and understandably, as people were saying, I don't know, because they didn't know. And I think that caused a lot of anxiety and children, which, you know, I wouldn't tell you to lie to your kids, because anything you would have said you wouldn't have been able to guess anyway. But that was a really hard thing. And I think that now that we have some history behind us, you know, I am telling parents as much as they can without lying to their children to kind of give as much comfort of like, well, you know, especially when they're like, Well, what's gonna happen, you know, it's COVID ever gonna end you know, blah, blah, blah and say, Well, you know, we now have vaccines and you know, all this positivity to kind of show that there There's gonna be some light at the end of the tunnel without saying yes, on this date, it's going to end, you can't obviously do that. But I feel like we've had enough information and enough, you know, positive move moving in the right direction to start giving your kids a little bit more comfort. So I think really, you know, I've always been an advocate of, you know, communication, unconditional love, like really trying to keep yourself in check. Like, you know how stressful you are stressed you are, but trying, you know, this kind of goes back to the whole put your, you know, your air mask on first. Just really being in that situation where you're in, okay, position to kind of deal with what your kids going through and recognizing that, you know, you get a lot of parents who are like, Well, when I was growing up, this wasn't happening. And I say a lot of my clients, like, first of all, you know, depending on your age, like my generation, like, I couldn't even begin to understand what my kids are going through, because I didn't have, you know, the internet, you know, and every social media and everything like we that just didn't work for us, like we had a drive by someone's house to see if they're having a party, like that's how it was back in the day. So, you know, I couldn't even begin to understand what they're going through. And then you add on top of it, the COVID situation, you add on top of it, the insecurity of it, the on top of that the stress of school, like, I'm just trying to really tell a lot of parents like these patient as you can with your kids not to say that you're giving them a pass, because you definitely have some kids that are taking advantage of this and saying, Oh, well, you know, I only had open book tests, and therefore I don't need to study, you know, like, I'm like, no, no, no, like, that's not okay. But, you know, trying to get them to understand that we are moving back in this direction. And, you know, everybody's got to take things seriously. And while that was a big year, you know, I say to my kids, like, you know, as much as I wouldn't have wished it on the world, there was so much positivity, at least in my family directly that came from it, like we have dinner every night together, we never used to do that. You know, we try, but I didn't give value to it in the way that I do now. And, you know, just certain phones time we watched, like, every series of TV as a family that you can imagine. And I really tried to focus a lot on that positive, you know, as much as they say that they missed this, and they missed that I said, but there's so much we gained, that we didn't have before. So I'm just, you know, trying to encourage parents to be as positive as possible. And, you know, a lot of it depends on the age of your kids. And you know, and there's all sorts of studies about, you know, what they think is going to affect the babies who are not reading facial expressions, because they have masks, I mean, it's, it's really fascinating, you know, all of the different ramifications of it. But you know, the answer is to really be as patient as possible. And you know, in recognizing your being stressed, and even being honest with your kids and saying, You know what, Monica is a little stressed right now, I'm going to take five minutes, come back, and then I'm so happy to play this game with you, you know, but like being okay with it, as long as it ends on a positive note for your kids, because they just need the comfort and the security. That's really what they need to get through all of this. Yeah,

Lindsay Miller  27:39  
thank you, that's really helpful. Because it seems like thinking about Maslow's hierarchy of needs, you know, how there's on the bottom, like, you need safety and security and a place to sleep. And then you know, you need food and shelter, those are the bottom ones, and then you'd go, you move up with a little bit more of emotional support, and then, you know, self actualization at the top. And so really tuning into the need for like a concrete foundation. In those things, I appreciate that you brought that up, because it does seem like if we can, you know, people who are navigating divorce can give their children the specifics in those like a sense of solidarity or strength or stability in those areas, like, Okay, this is we will always have a house to live in or you know, we will be able to get support from grandma, if if we need to live there, you know, whatever that looks like, but like, we will have space to live. And we will have food, you know, like, and hopefully, that's a reality for a lot of a lot of people listening. And I know it's not the reality for everyone. And then hopefully there are resources in the community that people can draw on, you know, like in their soup kitchens, and there are shelters, and like there are ways we can access the resources that we need to be okay. But I think in most situations where there's a level of financial stability, giving kids clarity, like you said, communicating around what's going on, because so often kids can in their minds, imagine so many scenarios and have so many big worries that parents don't really tune into, right. Like, they don't realize what the kids are kind of thinking or worried about unless they're starting to communicate. And getting clear on some of those really simple and basic needs can go a long way.

Jacqueline Newman  29:18  
No, I would absolutely agree with that. I mean, and it really the bottom line message that kids and adults alike, like everyone needs to know they're going to be okay. And that's how they're going to be okay, and what that's going to really mean okay, we'll figure that out. But I think if that's the you know, that and you know, I'm a big believer in unconditional love if your kids know that you have unconditional love. You know, that's it. And I used to like I was just bringing this up to my kids the other day and I think this is a real I tell my clients to do this too. Even with since they were little we used to play this game like Mommy will love you no matter what. And so they used to like when they were little they would be like, well, what if I broke all my cramps, I'd be like, I wouldn't be happy but I'd still love you. And we used to play this game and as they grew up, it became different things like I remember once once like, you're just like, what if I jumped off the roof? I was like, why try to catch you you probably I probably wouldn't you probably break your leg, but I'd still love you, you know, and it was like just like constant all the time. Like they would, you know, just do different ages, they come up with different things I'd always say, but at the end, it was like, but I still love you no matter what, you know, if I was in jail, I was like I, you know, put a nail file in your cake. And I'd still love you. Yeah, like, just, you know, it's one of those things, but I think that we started young kids just know, there's nothing you could ever do that would make me not stop loving you. It's such an important thing, especially as you go through a divorce, that the kids have that underlying feeling, because a lot of times there's guilt, they feel like, well, if I, you know, love the other parent, you know, one parents gonna stop loving me. And that's a very common theme because kids do don't understand this. Or maybe they're even men need to feel that way subconsciously by one parent, or consciously, for that matter, but let's hope subconsciously, but you know, and they do that. So I think just knowing and I say this to my client all the time, like, give your child permission to love everyone, you know, and love the inlaws. You know, I would say, you can never have too much love for your kid, like, let everyone love your kid and give your kids permission to accept that love. Because that's what they need from you. If it's the primary caretaker, a lot of times they feel like they need to feel like that's okay. And so I mean, I really think the core is being okay and unconditionally loved. And I think people can get through anything. But that's really the key key elements from my answer.

Lindsay Miller  31:15  
wise, wise. Well, let's shift gears just a little bit to family, like extended family. I know, as part of the book, you had some really great gems around how to offer support, and how to be, you know, showing up for people in a non judgmental way. And I think that the principles you just shared, like it's going to be okay. And I love you, no matter what I mean, we could start there with the kind of support that extended family members could offer. But in the current climate, where it's a little bit harder to just like connect, or show up in the ways that we used to what are you seeing as like maybe the more creative or supportive ways that extended family are kind of stepping in when needed to offer support to people navigating divorce?

Jacqueline Newman  31:56  
Yeah, so I mean, one of the issues, and I do talk about in my book is that a lot of times extended family means they mean to be supportive, or parts are 100% in the right place, however, very often are giving advice that really just makes the person going through the process worse, you know, if you say, why don't know why you're not doing this? Or how could you let him do this or her do that. It's not helping, you know, it really doesn't help it just makes them feel bad about themselves and make them feel weak or makes them or makes them more angry, or whatever it is. And you know, when I sit and I offer this all the time is to speak to the brother, the sister, the parent, like I always say, let me talk to them. And let me explain to them what's actually going on and the way the law actually works. And so they'll get off of your back, you know, and every time they give you a hard time, so you know, I've just talked to Jacqueline about it, you know, and I say all the time, like, and I do think like, let me take the brunt of it. Because a lot of times people aren't helping the way they think they are, even though it's all coming from a good spot. So to answer your question about what people are doing, you know, in the Zoom world at this, I think that again, so much of it comes out to like, you know, being there as much as you can, I mean, while I agree face to face contacts, not the same. I know a lot of clients that have their parent, like their grandparents have like a half hour zoom game, there are all sorts of interactive games, you can play online, that parent kids are playing with it, you know, they've done, you know, I know, somebody who did the scavenger hunt, and had worked with the parents, but like, wrote out all the cards, and like, the kid took the phone with them everywhere throughout the house during the scavenger hunt, like, you can get creative, you know, it's not ideal, but there's definitely ways to do things. And you know, there's, we did an online thing with a bunch of my family members where it was like this, you know, escape the room kind of thing, but it was like an online version. And I realized how we all just couldn't answer some very basic questions. You know, such as life. It was very interesting that way, I was like, wow, we're all not nearly as smart as we think we are. But it was fun. You know, it was a really good interactive type thing. You know, my firm, for example, we last year on our holiday party, you know, it's not we did this, I did this for nannies and friends and stuff, we did this magical VirtuAl Show that was really excellent. So there are ways to do things. It's not ideal. It's not the same. But I think that you can do certain things. I know, I actually had another client where the grandparent was very cute, would send a card. Like just every day in the mail, that kid would get like a little post it with a letter. And basically, and it was like all out of order. And then eventually, like the kid was able to kind of piece it together and it was like a cute little message. And so there's just you know, and of course, like I think the good may have been four or five is like so excited to go to the mail everyday because there's nothing better than getting now. So you know, just there are things that people can do to be there. I think it's taking the time to do it and really kind of segregating it and making it special grandma time like I know during you know COVID My kids had an hour like with my mom that they would talk to her like you know, once a week it was grandma time like nothing was scheduled during that time like this was their time and you know whether whatever they talked about I don't even know because it was there a tie. But I think that there you just have to kind of do that and and allow yourself that escape and feel that connection as best as you can. But people aren't getting back on planes. And so you know, I'm hoping that a lot of this won't be the As boring anymore, but no, there are ways to do things that you want to.

Lindsay Miller  35:05  
Yeah, those are really great ideas. I appreciate you sharing them. One of the things you said at the beginning that really struck a chord with me was the realization that, like, in a time of intense vulnerability, which is what divorce is, that the really supporting someone by trusting them, and encouraging them to trust themselves, is like a key gift you can get, right? So those moments when your clients are like, fielding phone calls that you're like, forget it, just send them to me. I mean, we, as family members, as friends, we never want to be like offering up advice that needs to be mediated by someone's lawyer necessarily, right? Their attorney like thinking that through, right, and I'm sure you did a great job of like explaining it, but I think like realizing, oh my gosh, is it you know, like the vulnerability that people are going through in, in that stage of Season of Life is intense. And so really piling on any more self doubt? Or any more like second guessing? Or, like, they're already doing that for themselves? Like ad infinitum. Right? So like, connecting, making sure they're connected with a solid professional, who's guiding them through the process, and then just at every turn, encouraging them to trust themselves? Trust the process, like trust their their advocate, who's working with them? Really like goes a really long way?

Jacqueline Newman  36:22  
Yeah, no, it's hard. Look, I'm a parent, I'm an over protective parent. And I think a lot, you know, I can relate. And I think if somebody was hurting my baby, I'd want to take care of everything. And I'd want to do everything I can. But I would hope that I wouldn't have you know, have the willpower to step back and say, I'm actually not helping, even though I think I am and, and sometimes it's about the person, like, I would acknowledge that I want to do this, because the idea of sitting back and doing nothing, I'm almost too selfish, to allow myself to sit there because I need to be helping. And but if I was really told, listen, you're actually not helping, and you're hurting your kid, I would stop dead in my tracks. And so that's really what I hope the message comes out. You know, and just listening to people, sometimes you just need to listen to and not fix. And that's always very, very hard for the people that are fixers like I am, but sometimes really what you know, and I asked, I tell clients that too, I say, Listen, you know, and I tell parents, I tell friends, I say instead of saying to your kid, to your friend who's going through this, or whatever, you know, what, you know, this is what you should do say, what do you need? You know, do you need me to listen right now? Are you looking for me to listen? Are you listening to me to try to fix and if it's both, that's fine. But sometimes they'll say, I just want to listen, I just need to talk and I need you not to do anything about it. And you know, and when that happens, and I do this, my friends, I do this, my kids, I have to sit and hold my tongue. And just listen.

Lindsay Miller  37:39  
Totally, I think we talked about this last time where my question is, do you need a listener right now or a problem solver? Because that can be either one, you just let me know what you're looking for. And I love that. Yeah, the recognition that a lot of times we do like have to kind of fight the tendency to be like, Well, I think you just need to do this. And it'll you know, resolve but especially in a situation where, like, what, when we're navigating divorce over a long period of time, like having the ability to sit with the tension for that long. I mean, I think a lot of people act out of a sense of like, just get it over with right, like, let's there's surely there's a faster way or surely, like, we don't have to sit in this discomfort for so long. And sometimes, I think that advice you gave earlier about normalizing emotion for kids, it can come in handy here too, like normalizing it for ourselves, like it's normal to feel really anxious or tense, or, you know, whatever it is when you're navigating a process like this. And giving like caregivers or parents the opportunity to say that to themselves before they engage with like a child who's getting a divorce, or a grandchild who's in the thick of parents trying to, you know, fight it out like this normal to feel this way. And there's not anything I can do to resolve it right now. So I just need to sit

Jacqueline Newman  38:49  
to be comfortable with the uncomfortable is very, very difficult. And I say that I personally I'm a survivor of it and trying very hard. But I say a lot, you know, people learn a lot from it. And so I tell people a lot like this is I tell people usually divorce is going to take a year, so buckle up, like you ready for this to be a really tough year. And you're gonna have to learn to be uncomfortable, the uncomfortable comfortable with the uncomfortable as much as you can be, you know, and that's a skill set that you're gonna have, that you're gonna be able to move forward with. And hopefully teach to your children and other people too, because it is what makes you stronger. Because life has many uncomfortable moments, divorce being one of them. But you know, you got to learn to accept it is what it is and you need to move forward, you know, as positively as you can throughout it.

Lindsay Miller  39:31  
Yeah, yeah, that's a great way of putting it comfortable with the uncomfortable and I think in terms of I was in a yoga class the other day and we're talking about suffering and the idea that suffering is something that here in the West we we just like shove away at every turn, you know, like as much as possible. We've, like, brushed it under the rug or we just don't even want to look at it, and how Eastern cultures have so many beautiful teachings about suffering and about how to navigate times of suffering and just accepting like you just said accepting that there are going to be phases of life where suffering is our experience. And in those phases, like letting suffering be the teacher. And while it is super uncomfortable, it has a lot of like, there's a lot of opportunities for resilience in the thick of it.

Jacqueline Newman  40:16  
Yeah, I say to my kids a lot like, you need to be unhappy to know what happiness looks like, if you were happy all the time, you'd have no idea. I said, so you need to have points of comparison. So when they're upset about something, I was like, enjoy your unhappiness. I was just like, because now how great are you going to feel when you're happy again.

Lindsay Miller  40:33  
That's awesome. I have never used that. But I'm going to

Jacqueline Newman  40:36  
feel free to steal it.

Lindsay Miller  40:39  
Well, and just touching back to that conversation around the book, and parents offering support, one of the things that like really was empowering for me about reading your book was knowing how to interact with friends who are navigating divorce, and after reading, feeling like Okay, not that I needed to impart all the things that you shared to them by way of advice, but more just me understanding the process so that I could sit with them in that discomfort, right, and really show up for them in a way that was like, more understanding than what I would have been able to otherwise. And so it might be a shameless plug for your book at this point. But I think that anyone in that situation, you know, if you're supporting someone who's navigating divorce, getting Jacqueline's book, reading it, and sitting with the concepts in it in a way that like, really allows you to just have more empathy for the process itself is going to allow you to normalize some of those moments in a way that, like, if you haven't experienced it, or you haven't read about it, you're not going to be able to,

Jacqueline Newman  41:35  
yeah, no, actually, I am not going to do this, because I'm done writing. But I had actually thought about writing a book at 1.4 family members going that have a family member that's going through a divorce or a friend, it was actually going to be totally tailored to exactly what you're saying to the degree of this is really what you need to know, to make yourself, you know, enough, not dangerous, but sort of, you know, like, just to put you in a position to understand what's going on to be better aware of the realities of divorce and the realities of these situations. So you don't, again, unwillingly, you know, stressed the person out that you're trying to help. So yeah, but I mean, I ended up not writing the book, and I tell people just to write the one I have.

Lindsay Miller  42:14  
Just translate it, Bridgette.

Jacqueline Newman  42:17  
Level of imagination there. Yeah,

Lindsay Miller  42:19  
well, and one of the one of the things that I think, again, around normalizing that can be helpful is for kids, because I think they're, in general going to carry memories and experiences and moments and emotions from the experience itself, right. But the more we can do to like, let those things surface as they're experiencing them and let those things be a normal part of conversation. Like the less traumatic, it has the potential to be in the long run, right, because it's being processed continually, as opposed to kind of being stored away in this space where like, they, they're not going to access it till they're 25. And in therapy, trying to figure out, you know, like, why they have relationship issues or whatever, like, the moments when we can just make it a part of the conversation and a part of life, those are going to be so healing for kids. Right? No, I

Jacqueline Newman  43:07  
would agree. And I think it's also I mean, one of the things I talked about, just, you know, kind of similar to what you're saying is that when I have clients, especially when I have them that come in so angry, and they just want to kill the other spouse, and they have children, I usually say, you know, I want you to take a minute, and I want you to think about how do you want your child to describe your divorce 10 years from now, 15 years from now? And I was like, Do you want them to say, you know, what, I had two Christmases and birthdays, and mom and dad got along. And like, I only knew about it at the end, you know, kind of thing? Or do you want them to say, Wow, I got pulled through hell, and it was the worst leg experience in my life. And I'm totally screwed up, right? Like, what do you want from them? And, you know, a lot of times when we talk about, you know, the dangers and the fears, you know, everybody walks in and says, I want to protect my children. And I say all the time, like, you know, think of your kids were in a burning house, you'd run and get them. But yeah, you're the one burning the house. And you're putting your kids in it, when you are being so you know, aggressive with your spouse, or putting your kid in the middle or dragging your kids to court like all these things like, you're the house, I was like, why would you want to do that. And usually when you get these images, sometimes, you know, sometimes it hits people and I think it's important, but I agree with you also about processing throughout. And that's why I'm such an advocate of kids being in therapy throughout this process. Because the other thing that happens is they you know, their four year old processing is going to be different than their you know, 15 year old processing. And so they store this memory and then try to process it a 1525 Whatever, it's going to be marked by the time it gets to that time that they're talking it out. And again, it's like I must think of it as like a ball and then has spikes out of it. And everybody has all these different feelings about it. And so I do think like, let it be precious and flush through, you know, at their younger ages. And you know, it's a continuous conversation obviously, and you know, but the fact is, I think if you can address it right in the right in the beginning and not let it become something more even though not to minimize the impact of divorce on children but like not let it be processed into Other regressions or things like that, that are gonna have their own issues too. You know, when you have a child that regresses, then that becomes an issue. You know, I've had we have a child case where a child started Bedwetting, you know, older child, and then the child couldn't go to sleepovers and became so self conscious. And then it just fed into all the other insecurities that happened. It was one of those things where it was like, if it could have been addressed in some way, initially, you know, and again, not to say, you know, I don't know how the behavior would have changed, like, I won't pretend to get into that world. But I can just say that it's, you know, it fed into other issues that the child had, and it just made everything else so much worse. So, yeah, nipping it in the bud as much as you can is definitely good advice.

Lindsay Miller  45:39  
Yeah, no, and I appreciate your illustration about the burning house, because I think that, you know, what I've heard divorce described in different settings, it is, it already feels a little bit like you're inflicting, you know, it can feel like you're maybe inflicting the harm. And so then I appreciate the like, recognition that for the process itself, like, that's actually where a lot of the harm comes from, you know, it's like you if you can smooth that process over a little bit and be like, a little bit more congenial throughout and be communicating and like allow the, the relationship ending to like to unfold in a way that is empowering, or like in your book, it talks about focuses on opportunities, while also honoring and recognizing the loss. But like, okay, there are going to be two Christmases now, you know, you're going to have the opportunity for this. And because the way we frame stuff for kids is so huge, it's just like, gonna shape the way that they see. See all of it?

Jacqueline Newman  46:38  
Well, that's the whole thing. And I think that, you know, it's really about a parent being self aware, you know, you have so many people that are so and I don't blame them. But I say people are getting divorced. They're a little narcissistic, because they're, they're hurting so badly. And they're trying to, like, do all these things, you know, to protect themselves, which is a completely natural normal reaction, except when you're so in it, and you have other children, you have children, and you're not recognizing the heat that's coming off of you, you're not recognizing your word choice, you're not recognized because it takes willpower and it takes energy to be careful the way you word something, when you're upset to sit and say, No, I'm not going to, you know, curse at this, or I'm not going to do that. Like that takes energy. And as we were just to kind of take us back to the XOOM people, you know, don't have a plethora of energy right now. So you add all this together. And I think it's just very, very hard, but they could recognize that kids are picking up on things, you know, I mean, kids, you know, I say all the time, like, they're so perceptive, and people don't give nearly enough credit. I mean, even they have studies about babies, knowing what's going on. And so, you know, parents will say that, well, it's not, like I said, he was an X, you know, or she was an X, but yet the tone you use is all the kid hurt, you know. And so it's like, the more you can be aware of these things, and really recognizing it's all being absorbed by your children. And ultimately, it's hurting them. You know, that's it. But I agree, I think divorce can be an opportunity, you know, the person, the parents have all the power, they have the opportunity, they can decide how your child is going to process this divorce, it is up to them how they do it. And if they handle it, well, your kid should be fine. You know, I mean, I'm not again, pretending that it's not going to be an impactful thing in their lives. But I have seen many parents do things the way that you know, I would describe as the right way and their kids really were fine, if not sometimes better for it. Because they don't have miserable parents anymore. They have two happy parents in different homes. And that's what you want. You want the role models for your kids to see you and happy and healthy relationships, because that's what they're going to emulate. So I see this as an opportunity, if taken that can really strengthen your child as opposed to hurt him or her.

Lindsay Miller  48:37  
So much wisdom today. So much. Thank you for your time, this has been fantastic. And I think the insights you shared are far reaching both for individuals in in situations where the Navigating divorce for supporting those in divorce, and then also for really being mindful about our responses to our kids. Because I think like you mentioned the self awareness piece. And that's where you know, I'm gonna plug mindfulness and meditation all day long. Like just taking a few minutes a day, right to sit and breathe. Like you said at the beginning, we're asking people to breathe an awful lot right now. And they're getting tired of breathing. But like we just gotta keep breathing while longer to help that nervous system settle and to keep us in a space where we can be a little bit more mindful of our language and intentional about our interactions. And then again, that support pulling in support wherever we can to get get ourselves to a place of steadiness so that we can tell the story of what divorce is for our kids and ourselves and make intentional choices about how we navigate it. Yep, I totally agree. Well, thank you again, since we already asked you the first two questions, I'm going to surprise you with a couple of other ones. I hope that's all right. Yeah. What's your favorite book? Favorite book? Gosh, like I haven't read a book and so long so say I can I plug my own? Yeah. Oh, right now that would be Yeah. All right now I would say yeah, girls a divorce jacket. There you go. And then do you have a favorite children's book?

Jacqueline Newman  50:09  
Um, what was my fear? You know, I did I have to remember the name of it. I remember was about a turtle. And it was a turtle and a friend. Oh, God, I can't believe I can't remember the name. I read that book. So I picture it tell you the story. It's the name of that book. So but it has to do with a turtle and a friend and, and the other end, and there was a bully situation with a bunny. And at the end of the day, they all became friends. And it was really because the bunny was scared. And that's why the bunny was feeling a bully. And then the turtle became very good friends with the bunny. And they all lived happily ever after. And I remember like my kids, we would read it like I mean, the pages were thin, which is why it's killing me. And of course, as soon as we hang up, I'll be like,

Lindsay Miller  50:52  
oh, and your favorite color.

Jacqueline Newman  50:55  
Favorite color right now is purple. But I also will say that that does change on occasion. My daughter is very into purple right now. And so I feel like there's a lot of purple in my house and I'm liking it.

Lindsay Miller  51:06  
Well, thank you again so much for joining me and you want to plug where people can find your book and also the website for your law practice.

Jacqueline Newman  51:13  
Sure. So my law practice is Berkebot. B as in boy e r k b is in boy Oh T as in Tom Burkebot.com. It's Berkman, Bakker Newman and Shine. So that's where it came from. And the book is The New Rules of Divorce: 12 Secrets to Protecting Your Wealth, Health and Happiness. And you can buy that at Amazon, Barnes and Noble wherever books are sold.

Lindsay Miller  51:35  
Jacqueline, thank you again.

Jacqueline Newman  51:37  
My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Lindsay Miller  51:39  
Thanks so much for listening. I hope you're able to take away some insights after this episode. I know talking to Jacqueline always leaves me a little bit wiser. So I hope that was the case for you. If you enjoyed this episode, I would really appreciate it if you would share it with someone who's navigating divorce supporting someone going through divorce, or you know someone who could benefit from the words that she shared. There's so much stress out there right now around divorce and I want to lower that in this episode is one of the ways we can do that. Thanks again for being here. Until next time!

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