Supporting family members with chronic illness

Lindsay Miller  0:21  
Hey there! This is Lindsay, I'm so glad you're here joining me on the podcast this week, I'm having a chat with Kelsey Harris, you may remember her from a previous episode where we talked about chronic illness. Today we're talking about how to support or live with people who are hurting in your house. So there are a lot of different ways we can struggle, right, we can have mental health struggles, we can have physical struggles, and those chronic struggles in whatever form they take can be a lot. And it's especially true if it's a kiddo that has the chronic illness. So we're gonna go through some different ways to cope, some different things to keep in mind and a few reminders for you to be patient with yourself, and recognize that there's a lot that goes into living with someone with a chronic illness. In my house, my family could definitely attest to this, because many of you know that I have Hashimotos. And there are so many ways that it kind of weaves itself into our world. And as much as I try to minimize it, it's still a pretty big presence in our life. So I hope this episode gives you some insight and a lot of patience for yourself and the process of learning to live with and support someone with chronic illness. Now, on to the episode. 

Welcome to The Stress Nanny podcast. I'm your host, Lindsay Miller, and I'm so glad you're here to make your life a little less stressful. This week's episode is about supporting family members with chronic illness and kind of how to manage the stress that chronic illness can bring into family life, and to manage that stress in an empowering way. So in order to tackle that topic, I asked Kelsey Harris to come back, you'll remember Kelsey from a few episodes ago. She's a psychotherapist in private practice, and a person who's lived with chronic illness for quite some time, she hosted the podcast chronically living, which is still available for listening to but it's not creating more episodes. And she has so much wisdom for those of us living with or supporting someone who navigate chronic illness. She hosts a meditation channel on YouTube called Kelsey L. Harris meditations. And she has so many great tools for managing chronic illness in a way that doesn't dull your life. Kelsey, thank you so much for joining us today.

Kelsey Harris  2:26  
Thank you so much for having me back. Excited to be here.

Lindsay Miller  2:29  
And me too. Our last chat had so many gems for people who are personally navigating chronic illness. And one of the things we touched on kind of at the end was how it's a whole different scenario when you're in a support role. Right. And there's like someone in the family with chronic illness and how the the challenges that people face in family life or you know, if it's an extended family member when it comes to chronic illness are pretty unique.

Kelsey Harris  2:55  
Yeah, definitely. It's a whole different set of things can come up for you individually, but also in the like the relationships, right?

Lindsay Miller  3:04  
Yeah, totally. And so that's what we're gonna focus on today. And as we get started, I was just thinking, let's talk through some of the obvious things that are stressful about that, like you're saying relationally or personally, like, what are some of the more obvious ways that stress kind of in incorporates itself into life when chronic illness is present in a family? Relationship? Or close relationship?

Kelsey Harris  3:28  
Yeah, so I think, you know, the probably the biggest one is that person who has a chronic illness, they have physical limitations, typically, right, there's things that they can't do, or can't do the same way that they did before, which can be sometimes an adjustment, especially if you're in like a partner role, right? Or even a child role, like it can be different to see your family member struggling that way. You know, and kind of along with that, one of the, I think most common physical limitations is energy, right? Like that person just is tired more often, regardless of what the illness is, or if it's just chronic pain, right? It's, it's like, you're using all your energy just to deal with the, like, the symptoms that you're having. And so I think for like family versus just really understanding that like, yeah, that's that's a thing that happens, right? And we have Spoon Theory, which I'm sure you've talked about on the show before, but no, you haven't. Okay. So anybody who doesn't know what spoon theory is, it was kind of created by this woman who has MS. And she basically said, relates energy to like having spoons, right? So let's say you start off your day having 10 spoons, and every time you do an activity, it's like one spoon gets taken away. Okay, so like if you shower that spoon and then if you make breakfast, that's a spoon and then right if you do happen to work and you go to work, that might be one spoon, but it could be a couple spoons, right? Because depending on how long your workday is, I So at the end of the day, at some point in the day you run out of spoons, so you have no more energy. Right. And I think it's really important for family members to understand that that does happen to most people with chronic illnesses. And there's ways for those people who have chronic illness to better manage that energy, which we can also talk about, and also how you can support support them in that, but that is a really big stressor that that comes along. And, and then you kind of, like, like we said, like, there's those like relational stressors, right? Like, usually relationships are impacted, because of anything from misunderstandings to communication issues, right. You know, just sometimes people with chronic illness have a hard time talking about their illness, or the opposite happens to the only one to talk about their illness. And either way it can, again, if you're that family member, you might get frustrated, either because you feel like you're not getting enough information or because you want to talk about something else, which is completely fair, right? But there are definitely you want to be able to manage that. And then I think the other big one is just kind of managing all of our emotions, right? So whether you're the person with the illness, or a family member, supporting person, you're gonna have a lot of different emotions come up sadness, anger, guilt, right? Like frustration, like these are all things that are so natural, even anxiety, like you might be just worried about your loved one. And that's, I mean, that's just really part of being human. Right. Like, it would be kind of weird if you didn't have those emotions. So I think just realizing that that's very normal. But there are definitely ways to deal with those.

Lindsay Miller  6:43  
Yeah, thank you for bringing up that list. It's really powerful, I think to just name it, right, that idea of naming it to tame it. Because we don't always pinpoint the exact reasons that this is a stressful thing, right? Let someone in our house has a chronic illness now, it's something we're going to be dealing with for the rest of our life. They're like, whatever. And like, it's stressful, but why? Right? And you just gave us a list. So we can start to be like, okay, yes, this is why it's stressful, it's stressful, because I don't have a way to communicate about that. Or the person, I'm not sure if they want to talk about it. But I have some questions, or I want to be accommodating when it comes to like food preferences or tolerances, but I don't know, or, you know, it's constantly seems to be changing. So it feels like should I even try or, you know, just like so many ways that it can feel stressful that we don't always identify why. And so thank you for bringing that list out. And I love that spoon theory, I'm glad you brought it up, I think it's such a powerful way to conceptualize it. Because at the end of the day, without energy, those other things you mentioned are also really challenging to navigate, right, if you don't have energy, putting extra effort into communicating, or extra effort into managing, like a whole overload of emotions, like it's, it's a kind of a sinking ship sometimes. And so figuring out how to, I think, especially at the outset, or the onset of the illness, know that you're going to be in kind of a, like intense learning phase for a bit right? As you cultivate some of these skills that you just haven't needed before, right? Whether it's cooking a different way, or communicating a different way, or sleeping more, there's just a whole different range of skills that are going to have to come online in order for the relationship to perpetuate itself, you know, in a resilient way, right? Totally. Well, this is something to that, I think, is important to recognize that for kids. If it's a child with a chronic illness, they also don't have the range of experience yet to know what is normal and what is not normal A lot of times, right? Or as they're navigating, what is a new normal for them, they don't have the same verbal, you know, like repertoire that somebody does, who's 40 and is like, Oh, my stomach kind of hurts, and I'm feeling like a little bit of indigestion and I'm also bloated, and you know, like they're like my tummy hurts, right? And you're left to kind of guess like, okay, is this like upper digestion? Lower? Is it you know, you constipated like, what, what's going on? And so, recognizing to that additional layer when it's kids have have just like body awareness that maybe you know, they're just still trying to sift through again, emotional awareness, teaching them the words for emotion, like I just felt, instead of, you know, for adults, you can say, well, I'm feeling a little overwhelmed and also like, I'm kind of a burden to you. And I'm not sure how to navigate that in a way that helps us both feel like we can engage with this relationship with reciprocity, right, like a kid is like, I don't feel good.

Kelsey Harris  9:50  
Yeah, so I think he brought up some good things. So like one I think we need to really normalize emotions, particularly right if someone doesn't, you know, is saying If they're sad, or they're, if they're crying, for example, and so on. So common people will be like, Well, my parents just told, I work with adults typically, or teenagers as well. But, you know, they'll be like, Oh, my parents told me not to cry when I was a kid, like, you know, suck it up. And it's like, oh, no, we actually want to just validate that that like, if you're sad, like, that's totally normal experience. And that's okay. It's okay to be sad. It's also okay to be angry. That's another one, you know, no one wants to normalize. But like, we all get angry, that doesn't go away when you become an adult. Right? And same with anxiety, like we, your kid might feel anxious about having like body pains or, you know, certain symptoms, and that, how adults also get anxious when they have those things is very normal experience. So I think just like starting off, by normalizing your child's experience, or whatever the family member, isn't their experience is really important. Yeah,

Lindsay Miller  10:54  
I'm glad you brought that up. Because I think, especially for younger kids, sometimes we don't give them the credit that they deserve for being able to know what something is. And so we wait. And we think like, we'll teach them about emotion when they're 12. When really, I mean, I encourage people to start teaching kids about emotion when they're babies, right? Like, just say the name of the emotion like, Oh, you're feeling sad, right? Now, it looks like you're uncomfortable. I would say that to my three month old, you know, like, and then as they get bigger, and they're toddlers, and you continue, you know, you're you're like talking to them all the time, because you're trying to build their vocabulary, you use the words like, it seems like you're so frustrated that your shoe won't get, you know, go off your foot is Do you need some help with that? Can I help you with your shoe, because it's frustrating to you, you know, and just like giving them a steady diet of emotional language is so supportive, right, especially in these moments when you end up meeting it and they can just like, Oh, I'm feeling this. And there's not like, you don't get mad at your 18 month old because she can't get her shoe off, right? Like, it's not her fault. She's frustrated, it's just like, Oh, you're struggling to get your shoe off. And so the same with like a five year old who's dealing with anger, like you're saying, it's really normal, and those emotions are big. And kids just need to learn how to manage them and work with the energy work with like, the thoughts work with all of it in order to move through it, instead of kind of denying it and like you're saying, judging it as something they shouldn't feel or feeling like an added layer of guilt around it. No, just use the word give them the tools they need to, to work through it and honor them with a space of neutrality to just like own their own emotional experience.

Kelsey Harris  12:29  
Mm hmm. Yeah. And like with that is that emotional awareness piece that you're seeing, right. And so the thing that I've noticed in, like working in the field of psychology, essentially, is that, you know, a lot of adults don't have really great emotional awareness either. Like they can't find the words to describe what they're feeling. And so I mean, there's a couple ways that you can teach us either if you're, if we're talking to an adult, or if you if you're an adult, who even if you have good self awareness, you want to help your kids. So one is what does it feel like in your body? Right? Because we know our emotions live in our body, they all feel like something, they usually feel different from each other. They exist and everybody's individual. So like, clients are like, oh, yeah, I see my arms. I'm like, my emotions are never in my arms. My emotions are always in my torso. But it can be completely different for different for some people, it's in their head. Like they feel like like an ache or pounding, right. And so really kind of exploring that. And the other thing you can do is just to find the right words is online, there are all kinds of feelings wheels, so you can you could Google feelings wheel and it will give you like the primary emotion and then it kind of extends out all these other like similar emotions, but are slightly different. They have different nuanced. Yeah, exactly. So I think that's, that's what can be a really good place to start is like, especially if you were as the adult not aware of what emotions you have pull up a feelings wheel and be like, oh, like, this is really interesting. This is.

Lindsay Miller  13:57  
Yeah, have you seen the Lindsey Brahmin pillow with the feeling we have? Yeah, I love that thing, where he's just like, it just sat on your couch, like what are you feeling right now it's anger with the touch of frustration equals jealousy or, you know, whatever. Track it to this specific emotion and have like, the capacity to just acquaint yourself with the range. Because when you look at that feeling wheel you're like, Whoa, there's a lot of different things that sadness is right, if you really get in touch with the nuance of it. Yeah, totally. I love that. Those are great ideas. Are there any more?

Kelsey Harris  14:34  
Um, I mean, there's like, the there's the a lot, right? So you can talk about emotional regulation. So like when once you've actually become aware of your emotions, like how do you regulate your emotions, so we all have what's called a window of tolerance, right? So it's like, this space where if we're in it, we are okay. And if we move outside of it, then we're not okay. And so we always want I try to get back into our window. And there's like, 1000s of strategies to try to do this. So I mean, a very simple one for anger is if you kind of stand or sit upright, and you open your palms towards, like forward, right? So just you're standing there, palms open, kind of like if you're, if you do yoga, and you're in shavasana, right? So, right, so you're just standing or sitting that way, it's an open pose. So you tend to, like when we're angry, we tense up, and we like, we're in like a combative stance, right? So open pose, you're just you're doing the opposite and tend to come down faster. So it's just one example. But there's, there's lots of ways to write their motions. I mean, I do want to say, like, always, if you're really struggling, or a family is really struggling, please seek help from a licensed mental health professional, that's the best way to go. But there are lots of ways you can learn this stuff, kind of through the self help board world as well.

Lindsay Miller  15:53  
Yeah, well, and this is the space where I love mindfulness, because, like giving that us that discernment to know, I'm out of my window of tolerance. I mean, that's what mindfulness is, right? That little space so that you can know where you're at, in relation to yourself and other people, and giving yourself the opportunity to then take action based on that awareness, like non judgmental awareness. So we're not flying off the handle, like, hearing, I'm frustrated with my kid again, and it's not her fault that she doesn't feel good, because she has this illness, you know what I mean? Like, if we're, if we kind of like, go off the deep end with our own guilt and shame about something or like, it's my fault, she has this because it was my genetic, or, you know, whatever it is, like, there's so many ways we can take that awareness and kind of run with it not in the direction that is skillful, right. And so when we're mindful, we take that awareness. And then we process those thoughts as they come up, we let them go down our thought River, and then we move forward with skill as much as we can to like address what's going on care for ourselves in the way we need to, because sometimes in these roles as caregivers, family members can also get super exhausted, right?

Kelsey Harris  16:58  
Totally. Yeah, I volunteered for a couple of years at SickKids Hospital in Toronto. And, you know, some of those parents like I just, like, amazing, like, they would see their with their kids 24/7. You know, and like, you could tell that they were exhausted, like sometimes I go in the room to play with their kid, and the parent would just stay there and like, just so that they could also chat with like another adult. Like I totally get. So I'm like playing with the kid and your parents, like, you know, just kind of getting out whatever they need to get out at that moment. But or sometimes they just needed a break to like, go get a coffee or have lunch or like walk outside. So it was a great experience for that. But like I think, yeah, I think that we need to recognize that is exhausting to have a family member like that needs your care.

Lindsay Miller  17:47  
Yeah, yeah. And whether it's like a partner, whether it's a child, I mean, it can be just a lot to recognize. So those are, again, some of the things we talked about at the beginning. And you've given us some strategies to kind of minimize the stress and build resilient. So that's kind of what we're going to focus on now is other ways to like how can the person with the chronic illness, or the family members, you know, in a Supporting Role lessen the stress of it, you talked about normalizing the emotion, normalizing the energy loss, like those are right off the bat things that are going to take stress levels down. Because we're going to have more realistic expectations, right, we're going to talk about like, the 10 spoons, instead of thinking we have like 25 at our disposal, and then crashing mid day and wondering what happened, right? We're gonna work through like realistic expectations, normalizing the new experience, what are some other ways to minimize the stress of the illness itself? Yeah, so

Kelsey Harris  18:42  
I big one is pacing, right. So if you're, especially for the person with a chronic illness, like you want to try to, there's lots of different definitions of pacing. So I'm going to give you the one that I use. But if you were to Google it, you will find like 1000 different definitions. But basically, it's like doing the same amount of activity every day, regardless of how you feel. Right. And so you can also teach your kids to do this, if they're the ones who are ill, but like, what tends to happen is when we have a really good day, we want to do all the things. And then what how, what happens is the next day we feel worse, right? And then we can't do anything, or we have the thought we can't do anything you can still do. So I'll give an example from my life. So about a month ago, I decided I really want to go on this big hike and I love hiking. And this hike I knew was going to be probably past what I can and should do. But I didn't you know I did it. Anyway, I made that conscious decision and I knew what the consequences would be. And I didn't feel that good that day. So it was okay. And then the next day I woke up and I felt terrible and I just wanted to stay in bed all day. Like that was my thought I was like no, I just I could stay here but I made myself get up and I kind of I had a little bit easier Morning. So like, I did my meditation, I did some yoga. And then I like decided I was gonna go for a walk. But it was just going to be maybe a little less than what I normally do, but, but it's going to be something. And it was actually fairly close to my normal range. But what happened is that rather than have like, several days that were terrible, I was able to get back up to my, like, normal pace much faster. So, so I mean, as much as possible, I would say, you know, try not to overexert yourself. But if you're going to do it, then know that the next day, you're not going to stay in bed all day, right? You're going to do something?

Lindsay Miller  20:38  
Yeah, oh, I love that in just a recognition that the highs and the lows, take energy to recover from too, right? Like if we, if we are dipping all the time, like we're having to recalibrate expectations, recalibrate our knee, and that takes a lot of energy. So just being able to take, like a steady pace as much as possible makes a ton of sense.

Kelsey Harris  20:57  
Yeah. Like I try to if I'm, I try to walk the same amount of steps every day. And people think it's funny that I track my steps. But I'm like, but then I know that I'm doing the same activity every day. Like, you know, if I do a workout, like I know, like, I do the same length of workout, or if I do the same length of yoga, right? So I'm doing the same amount of activity every day.

Lindsay Miller  21:17  
Yeah, no, I love that. Well, and I also think it kind of speaks to the idea of reframing the illness itself, because I think that can be a powerful way to reduce the stress of it. Because instead of thinking, Oh, this is knocked me flat, I'm not gonna be able to do anything for three days, you're saying, I'm going to mind my energy intentionally. Right? And you're not letting like the mental game of mental like, of chronic illness, get, you know, like, take you even further down. But you're just like giving yourself a framework mentally to work within. And like phrasing, like you said, like, I'm just going to keep my pace, I'm going to keep my pace no matter what's going on. And that's not you saying, now I'm gonna have to push through today because I feel awful. You know what I mean? It was a simple way to reframe, like, keep the pace.

Kelsey Harris  22:07  
Hello, yeah. Yeah. And I think that's, that's important, right? It's our thoughts really dictate our behaviors very often, right? So because we're like, we just believe everything we think, which not everything we think is actually true, amazingly. And so you have to kind of, and that's where those mindfulness skills that you're talking about. That's where that really comes in. Like I obviously, I host, a meditation channel. So I'm really into mindfulness. But I meditate daily. And I find that those skills are really helpful. And when I teach my clients to get into a mindfulness practice now, whether that's meditation, right, which I do you think is the best way to really build those muscles, because you're being very intentionally doing nothing except, you know, noticing your breath or something for, you know, 1020 30 minutes. But there are lots of other ways to build those muscles if you really hate meditation, right? So I mean, there's I on my meditation channel, I think it's actually not just meditations, it's a lot of just mindfulness exercises that you can do. But things just like grounding exercises, right? And just like remembering to come back to the present moment. That's the whole point of mindfulness is you're here in the present moment, right? Being aware and non judgmental, but I'm curious about your experience. So I think that's like a really good place for, for people to start is just, you know, practicing mindfulness skills of some kind and teaching your kids to practice mindfulness skills, you're never too I love when I hear that teachers are teaching mindfulness in their classrooms. Now I'm like, Yeah, I wish that back in the 90s. When I was a kid, we did that.

Lindsay Miller  23:42  
Right? It's one of the reasons that I am so passionate about working with kids is because I'm like, the hinge of development, like the door that development hinges on like swings, so open so wide, when they have mindfulness, right, because they have freedom, flexibility, they have mental resilience, emotional resilience, like there's so many things open to them that you know, would otherwise be closed if they don't know how to self regulate, if they you know, if they're not, they're easily provoked in situations where they would otherwise be excelling. You know, if they just kind of had a little bit to get them through a little more patients that themselves a little more curiosity about what it looks like to work through a mistake. Like, there's just so many ways mindfulness changes kids lives in, you know, like, significant lasting, lasting ways that I'm, I'm a big fan, so I teach it but I think it's what you're saying is important to to recognize, like when we're teaching our kids, uh, my approach tends to be a little bit more playful, because if we're, some kids do have the capacity and willingness to sit for meditation or like, we'll do glitter jars or the sand, the sand, the circle, sand, art, things that you can just flip around. But there's really playful ways you can teach and like on my Instagram on my website, we you know, there are some different activities. But giving kids an invitation that's playful to mindfulness I think is important because it sets stem up for a good relationship with it right, they don't see it as something boring, something they don't want to do, or but there are seriously so many fun and playful ways to acquaint them with like, we do worry balloons where we'll blow up the balloon to the size of their worries. So they pick a worry. So if they're feeling anxious about a family member's health or their own health, right, or feeling worried about going to a party and not being able to eat the cake, because they're gluten free, or whatever, they'll pick a balloon, that is the color of their worry. So they get to choose the color, right? They're kind of quantifying the worry, then they blow up the balloon to the size of the worry. And if they need another balloon, they can blow up another balloon, but they just hold it, they don't tie it off. And then we talk about how when you have a worry, you can do three things with it, you can hold on to it. So if you want to carry this one around with you for today, you totally can, you can ask for help with it. So what would you need? Do you need your mom to help get a piece of cake for you at the party? Do you need to communicate, you know, to the host or the friend's mom that you you know, you need a different kind of cake. And then once you've asked for help you need you can let it go. Right? Can you are you ready to let it go and like which kid is not going to let go of the balloon right at that. I love that. But it's just like such a simple way in the moment right to be mindful, like you're drawing attention to what's going on inside of you attention to what's going outside of you make a choice on purpose. And we don't even call it I don't call it mindful worry balloons, we just call it a worry balloon, but it's a mindful moment and activity. So I love what you're saying, like find the ways to incorporate it in when they're little so that when they're older, it's just a natural process. And meditation can come more easily. And it's something that they feel like a level of comfort with, you know that they're not pushing it away. They're really embracing this tool. That's such a huge game changer.

Kelsey Harris  26:49  
Yeah. And you know, another really easy mindfulness practice that you can do as a kid or an adult is just, it's really ties into what we're talking about before. But just to notice the name, your thoughts, feelings, sensations, memories, urges, whatever it is, right? So like, okay, so like, I noticed that I'm having the thought that, you know, I'm feeling stressed or that this is stressful, or I noticed I'm having the feeling of sadness, I noticed I'm having the sensation I it when it's, even if it's pain, I would say sensation, I know some having the sensation of throbbing in my knee, right, whatever it is, right? And that that's just a really, really mindful activity. Because you're in the present moment, you're being aware and you're being non judgmental, you're not giving it a label that Well, like I hate this feeling of, you know, I hate this pain I hate. You know, I hate feeling this way, this is terrible. This is stupid. No, I'm just getting rid of all those words, this is just what it is. And I find it very powerful to say like, I noticed I'm having the thought or I notice I'm having the feeling, phrase it that way to yourself. Because it also keeps create some space between you and those thoughts and feelings so that they're less powerful. So it's kind of like a dual thing going on there.

Lindsay Miller  27:58  
Who I love that you brought that yes, because and I love that phrasing too. Because we talk about that, you know, some of the kids that I work with who are navigating different health struggles, will talk about it in terms of the distance, and how if you can make that separation like this is going on in your body, but it's not all of you, right? It's not your whole self. And it doesn't have to dictate everything, if you can create some distance. So I love that, like I'm noticing that I'm having this sensation and talk a little bit more about that. Because as we're talking about skills to cultivate and building resilience, I feel like what you just spoke to is so powerful, the idea of taking something we would have usually called pain or like fighting with present state and being like neutral about it, and just giving it a higher level label like sensation. So instead of pain, which comes with like, go ahead, pain comes with all these different connotations, right?

Kelsey Harris  28:58  
Yeah. Yeah, I think definitely the language we use is important, right? Because it does. And again, if you're being in that non judgmental, very mindful language, it's going to be helpful typically, and then that's not to say like, Look, we all go initially, we're all gonna go to like the, the labeling of it is not a bad thing. But it's what you're noticing that you're doing that, okay, and then rephrasing it for yourself, just kind of like you said, right. I also like like what you said, like, when there's a sensation in our body, whether it's a feeling or like, like a sensation that comes with an illness, right? Okay, let's notice where it is in your body. Okay, so it's in your chest. Okay, well, what were in your chest is how big is it? Okay, do you notice that it's only in your chest and it's not in the rest of your body? Or, you know, people who have chronic pain, especially if it's widespread, something like fibromyalgia, right? Okay. You know, you might ask them, Well, where is it and they'll be like, it's everywhere. But like, can we maybe find the one spot that it's not right now? Like, let's explore, like, let's maybe do like a bit of a body scan and start at the top of your head and kind of move back Now in your body and like, what are you noticing in each of these areas? Oh, do you notice that they're, you know, right here on your shoulder and just like your there's no pain, right? It's kind of like approaching all the kind of different aspects of your life really, in a different way, especially if your inner life.

Lindsay Miller  30:16  
Yeah, thanks for sharing that example, I think too, when it comes to sensation, like the locality of it, and then also the strength of it. Like, because sometimes we can say, I'm feeling aware of like, I'm feeling strong sensations, or I'm feeling gentle sensation, you know, that, like, there's a gradation there that we can connect with if we choose to. And so I know, during the times when chronic pain has been something that I've, you know, like, navigated consistently, it's been helpful for me to take the take the neutrality to the extent that I'm able, and then also graded a little bit, because there, there are some differences. You know, like, I'm feeling gentle sensation today in this area, right? Like, I'm feeling strong sensation today. And it's, it's just a different way of saying like, This really hurts much today, but like, in my brain, it makes a difference. Yeah, yeah,

Kelsey Harris  31:15  
our inner language, how we talk to ourselves, it makes a huge difference in both our mental health, of course, and then also our physical health. Because when we talk to ourselves differently, we can often like, like you said, like, if you're saying it's a gentle sensation, well, then I'm gonna guess you can probably get up and go for a walk style, right? Like, versus if it's, if it's like a really intense sensation, you might not be able to, and so like, but if you don't label it anyway, and just like, it's pain, like, well, then you're probably not going to go do anything that would be helpful for you anyway, because you just talk to yourself that like, in a way that insinuates you can't do anything.

Lindsay Miller  31:53  
Yeah, yeah. Well, and this is, again, where I think we have so much power to change the trajectory of kids health, kids who deal with chronic illness, right? Because if we teach them this language when they're little, and then they just grow up with it. And that's the way they approach their illness. Their their resilience is totally different, right?

Kelsey Harris  32:15  
Yeah, yeah, totally. And we want we want to have more resilient adults, regardless of you know, whether they have pain or illness or not, right, like you want to, a lot of people just aren't as resilient as they could be.

Lindsay Miller  32:28  
Yeah, yeah. So let's, let's talk a little bit more about communication. Because I think that can be a place where like, if there's a family, like in the Family Constellation, if someone is, you know, navigating chronic illness, the ability to communicate with that person in ways that are supportive and patient, while also just like, honoring how you feel can be challenging, right?

Kelsey Harris  32:57  
Yeah, yeah. And that's, I think that's really important is to be patient, right? And to be supportive. I was I was on a Facebook group the other day, and someone asked, because they were there in the group, because I want to support a family member. And they asked about, like, well, I don't know what to say to them. Because like, if I see them, oh, don't worry, it's going to be okay. Like, that sounds like it's not the right thing to say. Everybody said, Yeah, we know that. You know, well, what can I see are doing so? Well, one thing you can do is just ask them, right? What do you need from me right now? You know, most people will tell you what they need. Right? And if they don't, I mean, that's, that's up to that person. Right? But like, certainly, they're like, maybe they do need actually some words of support than that. That would be a case if they said, Yeah, I actually would just like you to tell me that things will be okay. Then you would say everything's gonna be okay. Right? Or they might say, you know, I just need you to sit and listen while I complain for a bit. Okay, so then, like, Let's put on our compassionate listening ears and just sit there with them. Maybe they just need you to hold their hand or rub their back, right? Like, could be something versus like, being having that touch for that person can be very, very powerful. But it really just comes back to you know, asking, right, so that's the core of communication is we want to know, ask some questions.

Lindsay Miller  34:21  
Yeah. I love that. Because I think too, like it's the simple answer, but it's the one we often don't come to, right? We want to intuit or guess or think we know, or we do know, or you know, instead of just like how can I how can I show up for you? Yeah,

Kelsey Harris  34:37  
yeah, and really, I think when it comes to communication and family relationships, or like any relationship but especially family is really thinking about your relationship a more flexible way we tend to get really rigid in our in our thought patterns in general, right, but within relationships, if they're not flexible, that's usually where issues come up. Right? So You know, kind of thinking, okay, like, Who are these important people in my life? You know, what are my relationships currently? Like, right? Who's there for me when I'm having a hard time, you know, and then and then really thinking about like, okay, because we tend to then go to what the other person should be doing differently. So I know everybody's answered this question for the summer, like, now the other person has all their fault. But like, step back for a moment, and just be like, okay, so what would you? Like? What would I do differently in this relationship? You know, what do you want to give to the relationship? What do you want to get from the relationship? Right? So start thinking about those kinds of questions when you're just going into a conversation, like, what do I want to get from this? You know, maybe, especially if it's a challenging conversation, or something you don't really want to talk about, like, what's the purpose? What am I trying to give and get? And I think, like really starting to see your, your partner or, you know, parent or child, whoever the other person is, like, as a as a rainbow instead of a roadblock. Right? Because so I was doing a training and they actually, the trainer said this to like, the counselors participating. They're like, do you like remember to see your clients as rainbows on Roblox? Because sometimes people just like, you know, put up a front and like, it's, well, I don't know where to go from here. This is like, why are they being more receptive to what I'm saying? But you know, everybody's coming from a different place. And so sometimes we just have to remember that, like, no one's purposely trying to be a roadblock in any kind of relationship. Yeah.

Lindsay Miller  36:34  
Oh, that's fantastic. Yeah. Well, and I love that you brought the idea of flexibility in and just clear communication around intent, like getting clarity around what you're wanting from the Exchange, or the relationship and what you have to offer, you know, genuinely and literally, like, do I have that to offer you right now. And if I don't be okay to say no, but in terms of the flexibility, I think, again, that's where mindfulness comes in. So key, because it puts us in the place of being able to be flexible, like, this week, with the kids that I coach, we were talking about flexibility and how you can be too flexible, right to where you're not assertive. But you can also like fit together things in your life in a way that maybe you didn't plan to. But it actually still works, you know, kind of like Tetris, where like, there's a bunch of different ways it could go down. And you could still clear the row, but you don't necessarily, like it might not go the way you planned. And so being able to, like think of our relationships in a more flexible way, will be one of the benefits of practicing mindfulness. And then it will also strengthen our ability to be mindful, because if you can be flexible in these key relationships, right, if you can start to open yourself up to different ways of being, instead of being stuck in that rigidity, that's going to flow out into so many other areas of of your life. Yeah,

Kelsey Harris  37:53  
yeah. And I think the other really important thing and relationships that people often get hung up on is that we can't control anybody else's behavior, right. And that's why I say bring it back to yourself and what you can do, because you can't make them do anything. You can influence them, right, like the way especially if we're, we're kind of speaking with kindness and compassion and fairness and being assertive about our needs. And being very honest, like we can influence other people, but we can't force them to do anything differently. Right. So I kind of think about this, this is great metaphor that I really liked. So it's called donkeys carrots and sticks. So So you know, I'm guessing that you know, you like everyone else in the world have a pet donkey, right? Like, of course, not every week, you go to the market care that you go the market and the donkeys carrying your load for you. Yeah, totally, I mean to you. So there are two ways that we can motivate our donkeys, we can beat the donkey with a stick, right? And it works, the donkey will move it will carry the load for you. Or the other option is that we can motivate our donkey with carrots. Right? So the donkey cares load would give we give it a carrot. Donkey cares a little bit further. Give another carrot right and that works just as well as the stick works right either way that donkeys moving. The thing is if you use the stick over time, your donkey will just get really sad and miserable will not be a happy donkey. But if you motivate your donkey with carrots, you'll end up with a very happy and healthy donkey. So obviously, we don't have donkeys. As humans, we are not donkeys. But we usually try to motivate ourselves and other people with sticks. Right? So we beat ourselves up. We are like we yell at other people and we're aggressive and or you know, just not effective. And while this can motivate more us, but in sometimes it can motivate other people. Everybody just feels like shit after. Yeah, right. We feel terrible. I'm just like that poor donkey. And when it comes to motivation, kind of what takes the place of a carrot? Because obviously, I'm not purchasing and motivated by carrots. But it's just coming back to our values, like, what is important to you? How do you want to treat yourself others in the world? Right? So I think when we're thinking about motivation is like, okay, so what would be the more effective way for me to go into this interaction? Right? And it's probably coming back to most people, when you ask them what their values are. Almost everybody says kindness. Right? Yeah, or compassion or something in that realm. Okay, so maybe we should approach the conversation that way?

Lindsay Miller  40:43  
Yeah. Oh, that's such a good metaphor. I, I always love talking to you. Because you've come up with so many that I just like, Well remember, ad infinitum. Just keep thinking, I wish

Kelsey Harris  40:53  
I could take credit for these, but like, these are these from other people?

Lindsay Miller  40:57  
Okay, well, you've learned about a lot of metaphors that really served me. So I'm so grateful that you learned. But I think there's another element here, and we're getting ready to close. But I think there's another element here too, that bring attention to when it comes to helping kids. Because I think like the level of patience that it takes, you know, what I mean, to motivate with, with carrots, during those moments, when kids are struggling, when kids are having a hard time, it is a lot of time and energy of just like creating space, right, creating space for them to have the experience they're having creating space for them to process creating space for them in the family dynamic to be not, you know, and like kudos to all the parents who navigate that, you know, that experience. And then also just the recognition that a lot of times, they do just need the space. You know, like they, like we were saying earlier, they need the chance to normalize, to learn to communicate, you know, to figure out what the emotion is to figure out how to work with their body and kind of make it through whatever they're going through. And so in those moments, I think we can maybe rush or get frustrated or good to just kind of want to move things along, like I'm thinking of the donkey, like trying to get it to the market, you know, like just trying to, to get through that stage where they're just figuring out the illness or figuring out how to deal with it, or there's another flare or something came on that, you know, is an addition now to what they're what they've already kind of figured out how to manage and how, in those moments, we can want to push through to the other side and like make it for them or see, like you're saying earlier, see what we think they should do. And as parents, like, our role as a gentle guide, is so crucial in those moments. And really often the thing that they just need is the space and neutrality to work through it.

Kelsey Harris  42:47  
Yeah, yeah. And I think really, how we can one way we can all cultivate that is compassion, self compassion, particularly. So as the caregiver, you need to be self compassionate, because it actually increases compassion for others, and you will have more resilience and be able to care for your child or partner, whoever, more effectively if you are self compassionate. And then at the same time, the person who so if it's your child, you want to help them cultivate that self compassion as well, because it is hard to have a chronic illness and I can't even imagine, like, I became ill as an adult. Right? So I can't imagine being a kid, like a little kid and having to deal with that stuff. You know, I think that's, it's and then this is where we get that negative self talk of like, you know, oh, you should be doing better and you're stupid. And like, I'm not, I'm not good enough. And like, you know, our brains do that. Okay. So the only way to counter that is with that self compassion, like, so as a caregiver, you know, something like a loving kindness meditation, if you meditate, if you're open to meditation, it's a great thing to do. Or the other thing like I'm doing right now, is it just kind of touch like, touch yourself where you feel that emotional pain rates and just kind of breathe into it and just let that those feelings of kindness and compassion spread within you. And it's just taking that moment is so powerful, and it gives you space and cultivates resilience. And it just, it makes you more compassionate. And it can really, it's something we never learned as children that but I really think we should we like as typically, parents, and this is not a knock on parents, like my parents are the same way. And my parents are great. But you know, they tell you to be compassionate to other people. You got to be nice to everybody else. But nobody ever says, Hey, you should also be really nice yourself like that kindness needs to go to you first.

Lindsay Miller  44:43  
Yeah, yeah, I'm so glad you pointed that out. And, you know, there's so much research that shows that when we offer empathy to ourselves, it flows more freely to other people. And a lot of times we fight the good fight, trying to give it to other people at the expense of ourselves. And instead When we offer it to ourselves, like you just illustrated, we're, we're so much more free and able to offer it genuinely, to other people, we don't have to force it. We don't have to, you know, like, we don't have to beat ourselves up to give it and like, take every last one of our spoons, to, you know, to dole it out. We're just like, it flows freely because we feel it in ourselves, and we're full of it. Yeah. Can you give me one example of a potential outcome? So what is the change story you've seen when someone has utilized just a few of these tools in their lives to navigate chronic illness with a family member differently? What is the potential for change? Because I think sometimes we can get so mired in the current circumstances that can feel a little bit hard, awful and overwhelming, that it can be hard to see the light and hard to see why it would be worth the effort to manage this stressor more skillfully. Can you give us like a light at the end of the tunnel?

Kelsey Harris  45:54  
Yeah, so I'm gonna give a couple of disclaimers first. So first of all, there's no guarantees, right? There's lots of factors that come into play for each individual, that I can give you different results. And then my second disclaimer is, you know, again, always seek help from a mental health professional who's licensed in your area, right? That would be your best way to be able to do a lot of stuff more effectively. So all that being said, yeah, like you, there's a lot of research that supports a lot of these different types of strategies. So especially when it comes to like mindfulness and self compassion, there are so much research saying that this is really, really helpful. And typically, what like, what I've seen is that when people use these skills in their lives, they are just more flexible, so like, psychologically flexible, where it's, it's easier to have better quality of life, right? When these stressors are less of a problem, and they're less of a problem when you do not react to them so rigidly right, so. So if you're the person with pain, Your pain will actually decrease typically, as a result of dealing with your stressors more effectively. And if you're a caregiver, you will just be able to be a better caregiver, you'll be able to be better in that relationship. And, and I've seen this with some some clients of mine. And, and definitely, there's lots of examples of it. I don't have anything very specific for you. But like, yeah, there is a light at the end of the tunnel. But I you know, I think really importantly, it's easy to give up, right? Because some of the stuff is really hard to do. It takes time, right? You're not gonna suddenly be self compassionate, and mindful, after listening to this podcast would be amazing. I really wish you were but like, works, right. And so it takes a lot of practice, right? Change is slow, I always tell my clients because everybody wants quick results. But change is slow, right? Especially when we're talking about like chronic pain, chronic illness. It's, it takes a while for things to get better. So you really have to be patient with yourself and with the other person in order to achieve any kind of results. But also be like very realistic and what your what is it you're trying to achieve? Because a lot of people would be like, Well, I don't want to have pain anymore. Whether that's physical or emotional. Well, that's not realistic, we're human. We all experience pain, and we will for our whole lives. So you know, what is it that you're actually trying to get out of these changes? And I think if you're realistic with that, and just being like, you know, like, I would like to be more flexible, and I would just like to be better caregiver or I would be maybe like, it's a specific behavioral thing that you'd be doing differently. You know, maybe it's, you know, I'm gonna go for a walk with my person every day, or I'm going to meditate every other day or think about something specific. And then you're more likely to achieve, like that goal. And as a result, you will probably feel better.

Lindsay Miller  48:49  
Yeah, yeah, those are great. Well, and just to add one more thing, as a caregiver, I think that you can't underestimate the value of that flexibility that you mentioned, because as caregivers, we're often trying to find ways to be more helpful or help our person, you know, think creatively, when they're maybe in a rut or look at a problem in a way that's more empowering or you know, there can be so many benefits to that flexible thinking that like we'd say, oh, yeah, flexible thinking is huge. But really the the day to day like moment to moment options that you have when you're not stuck in rigidity. I mean, they're myriad, right? Because all of a sudden, you're you're making new connections are thinking of like this worked here. And this worked here. So maybe in this situation, we need this or the last time we went out this happen. So maybe this time if I try this, it won't and so like the quality of life, like you're talking about, it's massive and it's hard to articulate it if you haven't experienced it, but that the letting go of rigidity is huge for just improving things all around.

Kelsey Harris  49:56  
Yeah, and if you're a caregiver and you're struggling right now, like I think I want to normalize Is that like that's normal like caregiver burnout, compassion, fatigue, those are things that happen. And the research says the best thing that you can do is actually practice self compassion. If you are struggling with those things in particular, like if you just feel burnt out or like you have no more compassion to give, that's when we start with self compassion, increases compassion for ourselves and others, and then you can become more psychologically flexible from there.

Lindsay Miller  50:25  
Yeah. Thanks for bringing that up. This has been such a great conversation. Thank you again, so much for coming and sharing your wisdom. I always love talking with you.

Kelsey Harris  50:35  
Yeah, this has been fantastic. Thank you so much for having me. Before we

Lindsay Miller  50:39  
go, can I ask you three questions that I am going to ask you different ones, because we have already asked you the first three. Yeah. What is the last book you read?

Kelsey Harris  50:51  
Um, so I'm actually reading a book right now called Tuesdays with maurey. So yeah, it's a great book. So if anybody has not read that I really recommend it. I'm about halfway through right now. Otherwise, I usually read like, just really quick page turner like thrillers, because I feel like I use a lot of mental energy in my job. And I want to after so

Lindsay Miller  51:14  
come down. Yeah. Your favorite vacation spot?

Kelsey Harris  51:18  
Right hosts? That's hard. I love vacations. So Costa Rica, I went to in 2019. It was amazing. I literally got a tattoo about it. And it's, it was, I wouldn't buy a house there. And then my other favorite vacation spot is Los Angeles. I love LA. It's I people. So many people complain about LA, but I just think it's fantastic.

Lindsay Miller  51:41  
Yeah, I love it too. That's great. And then favorite thing is there like a saying you have that you say to yourself or clients.

Kelsey Harris  51:49  
I'm not that I say to clients, but my growing up, my parents had some great sayings. But one of them was like attitude is everything. And I think that's true.

Lindsay Miller  52:02  
Right? Hello, that Kelsey, tell people where they can find you. How can they learn more about your meditation channel and your work?

Kelsey Harris  52:09  
Yeah, so meditation channels on YouTube. So Kelsey L. Harris meditations, you can subscribe if you would like, again, it's not just meditations, it is mindfulness content in general. I do have a blog as well. So it's chronically dash living.com. So I do blog about kind of coping skills for chronic illness. And then as far as my practice goes, I practice in British Columbia, Canada. So if you are a resident there, you can definitely reach out to either of my clinics. So it's advanced health and wellness in Port Coquitlam. And Westwood total health in Coquitlam. And I do online counseling as well. I can practice in some other provinces in Canada, Canada is very differently regulated than United States. So and the United States is very regulated. So unfortunately, I cannot see any Americans but but definitely if you're in BC, and select other provinces.

Lindsay Miller  53:05  
Well, thank you. Again, this has been such a conversation rich with insight, and I'm grateful we could connect today. Yeah, me too.

Kelsey Harris  53:12  
Thanks so much.

Lindsay Miller  53:14  
Thanks so much for joining me, I hope this episode served you and you can take away some tips, mindfulness tools, or insights that will help you navigate your relationships with a bit more ease and understanding. My favorite part of the episode was when Kelsey was talking about motivating the donkey with carrots or sticks. And I really, really see that in myself and in my clients, the tendency to kind of beat ourselves up to get results. And when all actuality giving ourselves incentives and being gentle and motivating, is really the long term strategy that's gonna work the best. It does take a little more effort sometimes, right? Because sometimes it's easier to just beat ourselves into submission. But when we can be gentle, figure out what's motivating to us and then find ways to just like gently coax ourselves forward during times that are challenging. It's so much easier, so much easier than being hard on ourselves. So I hope this episode has given you some things that will support you, I would appreciate it if you would leave a review, you can leave a review at ratethispodcast.com/thestressnanny. I'd love to have you follow along for continued episodes. And then please share this with a friend. I think this topic is one that is rich with opportunity, right? We all know people who are navigating chronic illness in some form or other and having a few more tools emotionally, mentally and physically. To kind of work through the hard moments is a gift. So please give this gift to someone else and so that their life can be a little bit easier to I am grateful for you as a listener. Thank you again. Until next time!

Transcribed by https://otter.ai