Wading through confusion

Lindsay Miller  0:22  
Hey there! This is Lindsey. Welcome to The Stress Nanny podcast. I'm so glad you're here to pick up some tools to help your family stress less. As we move into summer, we have so many opportunities to connect with our kids in meaningful ways. This episode is one that is designed to help you recognize moments where you can help your kids process some of the crazy that we've all experienced over the last few years. My guest is Dr. Carol Lieberman, and she's going to guide us through some different considerations and some really simple ways that we can offer our kids space to process. 

Welcome to The Stress Nanny podcast. I'm your host, Lindsay Miller, and I'm delighted that you're here. My guest today is Dr. Carol Lieberman. Dr. Lieberman is a Los Angeles based board certified psychiatrist and an award winning and best selling author. She was trained at NYU Bellevue and Anna Freud's London clinic. She served on the clinical faculty of UCLA neuro psychiatric institute for years, when she isn't seeing patients or testifying at trials as a forensic psychiatrist and expert witness. She's working as a three time Emmy honored TV personality who's appeared on Oprah, the today show Good Morning, America, CNN, Fox News, and many other outlets, Dr. Lieberman, and I had a chance to talk about a year ago, and it was such a delight. And so I'm so grateful for the chance to connect again, Dr. Lieberman, and thank you so much for being here. You're welcome. It's my pleasure. So the last time you and I chatted, we thought, Oh, my goodness, it has been a year it was at the beginning of 2021. And we were thinking back on how 2020 had gone. And we were like, that was a lot to process. So here we are at the beginning of 2022. Yes, and we've got even more, right?

Dr. Carole Lieberman  2:08  
Yes. It is not looking good for what's ahead. I think we well, what it says is we need to make ourselves even stronger. Like, you know, during COVID. I was doing a lot of interviews and so on trying to giving people my list of things. And actually, that's good. Good to repeat today. Because, in fact, it's not really just for COVID. I mean, I was talking about things to build up resilience, and and particularly, you know, health wise, to not catch COVID. But really, I mean, the world has gotten crazy, I wake up every morning. And the first thing I want to do is I send out a tweet. So I go through some of my favorite outlets, you know, online, and I'm, and I find the thing that makes me the most angry, and I tweet about it. The most outraged, you know, do you believe this? This is outrageous. I think I would start every tweet with outrageous if it wasn't, you know, boring to do that. But I mean, seriously, the things it's like Alice in Wonderland, where we fell down the rabbit hole. And it's things that we couldn't have even dreamed up if we were writing a script, about how the world is gonna get crazy. Some of these things, most of these things we wouldn't even been able to think of.

Lindsay Miller  3:36  
Yeah, yeah, it's so.

Dr. Carole Lieberman  3:39  
So we really do have to build ourselves up, not just you know, physically, but psychologically to sort of go with the flow, right? Although, although, let me just say a little caveat to that. Because I mean, go with the flow in terms of being able to be flexible, and try to, you know, overcome obstacles and that kind of thing. So, we were talking beforehand, and it kind of came out that I was realizing that the number one problem sort of general problem that kids are having these days is confusion.

Lindsay Miller  4:14  
Yeah, it's such an interesting point you bring up because this, this idea of confusion and not having kind of a clear way forward. It's unsettling for anyone, right, but especially as kids are trying to get grounded in their own development in their own personalities in their own, you know, culture or, you know, time and space school, whatever, to have so many things kind of like swirling around them, makes it challenging for them to like, come up with this sense of discernment. And one of the things you had mentioned before, was this idea of parents instilling values at home. And I, I am such a proponent of that and I am curious about your take on that. Like what are some of the ways that parents could, you know, be having deeper conversations about values with kids right now, you know if is this confusion and opportunity for parents to kind of sink kids down into a set of values to help them feel grounded, and like you said, whether whether the children adopt those values long term, at least giving them some sense of grounding in like, here's, these are the most important things in our house or in our family is that is confusion, the invitation to like, you know, get a little more clear on those.

Dr. Carole Lieberman  5:28  
I like that, yes, confusion is the invitation. I must say, you know, I've been continuing to see patients and on Zoom during I still to this day, you know, because it seems like, why spend the time driving to the office. But, um, but But anyhow, and so, so I am aware of what is happening in a lot of families, and how kids are feeling and so on end, one of the things that has been shocking to me is how so many parents are, and regardless of the age of the child, like all ages, even from, you know, from little kids to to kids who have been graduated from college. I mean, you know, some people might say, well, they're not kids. I mean, they still are your kids, you know, and they are afraid, or they feel somehow that it's not their right, to ask questions about things, and certainly not to give their opinions about things. I'll give you some examples. Um, oh, let's see. One child who is now about 14, she's really depressed, she's been having a very hard time because because she was kind of she's a smart child. But she was having trouble getting the discipline, disciplining herself like to do homework and everything starting in early grades starting at around third grade. And I had to like, practically stand on my head to get her mother to get her a tutor. And to do other things to get a week or two after school activities. The daughter doesn't like a system like to eat food that her mother makes. Now I know this woman. I mean, I know that she's you know, she her mother taught her how to make good food. And, and, you know, so it's not about the what the food tastes like. So I tried to say, Well, do you think you know, that could mean that she's feeling angry at you? Did you ask her about that? Did you ask her if she's feeling angry? You know, I mean, all of these things, like, how she doesn't want her parents and parents to leave her in the house alone. And by net, you know, that was okay, when she was 10 or so. But, you know, 14, you're supposed to be babysitting other kids. And so did you ask her why you know what the problem was? And how you could make her feel more comfortable? Or like the mother's a little overweight? So I wanted the mother to take walks and so on. And did you invite her to come with you? Yes. But she doesn't want to go? Did you ask her why she doesn't want it. I mean, and then I should go on the other extreme. And these were things happening again, since she was young. And then on the other extreme, and older child, this child who now has just been graduated from college, she has a well, it's all It runs the gamut from she had had a boyfriend in her last year of college. And so and she didn't want to do what she was doing zooms with her parents. And but she didn't want to show her boyfriend. Have him be on the zoom. So I said, Well, did you ask her why she didn't want to do that? No, well, we don't think we shouldn't, you know, that's not our business. We shouldn't ask her those kinds of things. And then she had now she has stomach problems. And but she doesn't want to go to a doctor to get to get tests to really figure out what's going on. And you know, I've been getting more and more concerned about this. So I bring it up fairly often. She's going she went to a doctor who doesn't really treat that and so he sent her to a nutritionist. Well, the problems that she describes with her, you know, gastrointestinal system seem a lot, you know, more serious than just going to a nutritionist. So boy, did you tell her when you're going to get her to go to a doctor who specializes in this? Well, we don't feel like we can tell her Excuse me. You know from from living your daughter flunk in from third grade on to letting her go on for months and months. It's probably maybe a year now to have these gastrointestinal problems that aren't getting better, and not asking why or asking other questions or feeling like you can't interfere. I mean All right, it's crazy. I mean, I'm gonna just say, pure, pure and simple. It's crazy. Of course, parents not only have the right, but they have the obligation to ask about these things. I mean, you can do it in gentle ways. There are all kinds of ways are asking about problems. You know, the key is to make kids from the time that they are born, or Aaron can speak, to feel comfortable asking you questions, talking about everything, you know, from sex, to their gastrointestinal purchase anything and everything, to what's on the news, when you know what they see on television. It's just really frustrating. And, you know, not to be asking, in a way, like, like, like, you're in the FBI. And this is an inquisition and you put the light on, but just gently and so yes, you know, to go back to like, your original question. Those are the opportunities to instill values, you know, whatever your religion is, every child needs to have a religion, you know, needs to at least be be acclimated to the family's religion from the time that they're young, then when they get older, when they get to be a teenager in their 20s, they may think this is a bunch of hogwash. You may not want to go along with it. But especially with the world getting crazier and crazier, you know, having a religion being able to go to church or a temple or, you know, wherever you would go and, and yes, of course, you don't need to be in a temple or a church to, to pray, you know, God hears you wherever you are. But there's something different, something special and more meaningful. When you're with a bunch of people, you know, your neighbors, and whomever, and praying together, that's a lot more powerful, and comforting, and so on, than just being in your little bedroom saying, Please, God save me from this,

Lindsay Miller  12:05  
what is going on, I was reading an article the other day about, like the insulating nature of children having a spiritual practice. So how like for mental health, like you're saying, for mental health, for just the sense of community, and a sense of hope, outside of themselves, like tethering children to some sort of spiritual practice is really crucial, you know, and there's so much research that, that points to that. And so, I love that you brought up, you know, the value of that for kids, and how, like, recognizing that we're gonna give them, we're gonna give them something, you know, we're gonna give them a start in it, and they're gonna grow on it. So our job as parents, right is to set up this foundation, where they, like you said, have communication skills where they can communicate with other people with us, like, say what they think and need and feel, and feel like it's safe to do. So I love that you said, like, our job is to make the safe space. And then to connect them to like something bigger than us, right? Like, you're saying, give them a spiritual tether, too, so that their communication can extend beyond the family unit and into, you know, like a more universal sense of support. And, and it does seem like those two things would go a long way in helping kids kind of settle into a sense of, of grounding amidst the confusion that swirls, you know, for everything. And I want to get your take on this too, because so many kids, you know, we're just coming out of out of the intense restrictions of COVID. Right. And like, we seem to have in, like you said, in most places, masks aren't being worn in some places they are, I know, in, in the school that my daughter goes to, there's been a big, big emphasis on, some people are still going to wear them, and some people are not, and we respect all people like your choices respected. And you know, they say it in parent meetings, they say at school, and it's just a constant reiteration of like, everyone gets to choose here, what they do. And I again, I think, like you said, opening it up to kids and having a conversation around that. And, you know, the other day, I was talking to some kids about how they don't like wearing masks. You know, they're uncomfortable, but they prefer to wear the masks because they can kind of hide.

Dr. Carole Lieberman  14:19  
Ah ha, yes. Yes. That some kids have. That's become a thing. Yeah. And of course, for other kids, it's more like, you know, a while this has been happening to squelching kids voices you know, you don't have a voice that's so that's exactly the what your daughter's school is doing is exactly the perfect way. You know, not to make people kids feel bad if they wear masks or they don't wear masks. The whole point is it should be a choice. Same thing with vaccines. It shouldn't be a choice.

Lindsay Miller  14:50  
I was just I wanted to touch on what's been going on in the Ukraine too and get your take on this because I know you have you have insight here. So you know A lot of parents, right? Coming out of COVID. Like I said, we're talking about whether or not we're wearing masks anymore and kind of getting used to like things coming back to normal. And then Russia invades Ukraine. And then we're talking about how there are worldwide ramifications of this. And you know, like anxiety and nervousness ratchets right back up again, because the whole world is kind of in commotion around this. So what are your tips for helping kids? Because, again, hopefully, the family is the safe space for those conversations. And kids are coming home and asking questions, or there's an openness about what's going on and what could be expected. But after just walking kids through two years of pandemic uncertainty, how, what do parents do now? When they're walking them through, like worldwide unrest?

Dr. Carole Lieberman  15:44  
Yes, it is. It's, it's a lot. You know, it's a lot for kids of all ages, and parents, adults, first of all, the number one, the number one mistake that parents make, in regard to the war, or in regard to terrorism, what you can do, so the biggest mistake is not talking to the kids about thinking that well, this will pass whether it was COVID, or, or, you know, anything this will pass. And apparently, now it looks like the war in Ukraine is gonna go on longer than we thought it was gonna go on, you know, but even at the beginning, even from the very beginning, you can't think that your child doesn't know something, you know, of course, if they're, you know, three or four, they understand less, but they see, you know, they see these images of people dying, I mean, these there are these gory images all over the place. And so they know something is going on. And of course, the older and more sophisticated, they know more. But even older kids, I mean, even adults are confused about what really is going on. And the whole thing is very confusing. So, so you can't you can't think to yourself, I'm afraid to talk about to them about it, because I don't want to scare them, I don't know how to talk to them about it. You just have to, you know, first it's good to ask questions like, like, you know, one of the best ways to start the conversation is if you just all were watching television, and a news report comes on or something like that, or if that doesn't happen, then go to the internet, and put something on I mean, of course, first, first vetted yourself to make sure it's not the most gory picture of it, but and then ask them if they have questions. And if they some kids, a lot of kids are going to be are gonna say well, no, you know, because they're afraid to ask questions. So they think you don't really want them to ask questions. And whatever they say, you know, you can start telling them things, you know, very gently at the beginning, and again, depending on their age, and their psychological maturity, but the real key is to get them to express how they feel. Now, for some kids who aren't, you know, where it's a little more difficult, or if they're younger, you can just show them a whole page of emojis and point to which, you know, which one do you look like or feel like, but then there's other simple ways like, like giving the child drawing paper, you know, construction paper, or a blank piece of paper of any sort, and crayons, and watch what they draw. And you can, if you can't, you might not be able to figure out all the deep psychological meanings and all of the things on the page, but you certainly can see whether, you know, the main four feelings that the kids are going to feel are scared, sad, mad and bad. So you can certainly see like, if they draw pictures, let's say for scared, well, maybe they'll draw a picture of bombs dropping, or maybe they'll draw a picture of a wolf, you know, running after a child or sad, you know, you can see with the faces that maybe like, oh, they draw like faces with a frown, or they draw dark, gloomy clouds, that kind of thing is sad, then scared, sad, mad, mad, they draw anything and then they take a crayon and they scribble all over it, you know, an angry strokes. And then bad is it's not that they are bad, it's that they have a mixture of feelings and they can't really you know, describe it and just weren't feeling so they're just feeling a mixture of, of upsetting kinds of feelings. And then you can ask them about their dreams. And same kind of thing. Just even just in general strokes, if they're dreaming about somebody chasing them or you know, and get them to to connect their feelings. Do you think that seeing this picture or hearing about the wall or you think that might be? What's calling you causing you to feel that way? And even if they say no, you know, no, I don't care about that, that's all the way over there, you know, at least you've given them the opportunity, and at some later time, they might well come to you and say, you know, what I am really such and such about this, you know, now we have the added little wrinkle, of a nuclear war. And kids are asking about that. And so I've been describing it as rain that can make you sick things that come from rain that comes from the sky, you know, that can make you sick. And if that were to happen, then you should run into the nearest building, and stay inside, and wash your skin and wash your clothes. And off and and call, call us or call, you know, they should have you should give them a paper with a plan, you know, phone numbers or, or 911. Or also, you can get kids to do things, that the best antidote to feeling helpless, is doing something, and it could be like going around the neighborhood and collecting money to send to the Ukraine. Or it could be it could be reading history books and learning about Ukraine and Russia. Or it could be reading to kids here in America, because you can't read to kids in Ukraine, some kind of volunteer work. And then of course, you know, just doing something that in some way, is can help. What's you know, even like the various organizations that are doing things, sending things to Ukraine, maybe you can go to one of their centers and help pack boxes or things like that. So that is very helpful.

Lindsay Miller  21:49  
No, I definitely is. And I appreciate those tips. Because I think the ones that stand out to me, and you know this from your book, because you wrote the book about terrorism for kids, right? Lions and tigers and terrorists? Oh, my. Yes. And so you have like, already walked through this process of explaining big scary things to, you know, to kids in bite sized ways that they can understand and that they can process. But what stuck out to me when we were talking is like, I think as parents, often we feel a level of confusion, or we're uncertain ourselves on how to respond. You know, there's been stuff that's happened in the last, you know, couple of months globally. And I was like, I don't I have no, I don't have an explanation for this. I don't you know, I have, I have one, but it's maybe not a child version. And so I think that what you brought home, there was the realization that in those moments, we don't have to have an answer. We don't have to make it better. It's not our job to fix it. It's our job to hold space for their emotions and their experience to unfold in a safe place with us.

Dr. Carole Lieberman  22:55  
Yes, and to let them know, you know, you can talk about heroes, for example, like as Alinsky, you know, what a hero he is. And you can also talk about, you know, in my book, my terrorism book, I talk about terrorists, like as being like, the big bully on the playground. So nowadays, you can talk about Putin as being like the big bully on the playground, putting it in words that kids can understand.

Lindsay Miller  23:23  
No, that makes sense, making it relatable to them, and then giving them an avenue. Yeah, to just sort through it in whatever ways they are you like, whatever they're processing at school, from what they've heard from friends, or whether it came up in a discussion. You know, I know my daughter had a discussion in one of her classes kind of about world events and what was going on, and it was good for me to hear her perspective. You know, she was like, This is what I commented. And I think sometimes, all we have to do is just like, create this space, ask the questions, like you said, What are you hearing about this? What is our Do you have any questions about this? Is there anything you're wondering when it comes to, you know, this war, and, and really giving them the ability to articulate that, and then I know, we have listeners, we have some listeners from all over the world. So recognizing, too, that there are going to be other kids who are experiencing this as refugees, you know, and are going to need a whole different level of support for kids who are, you know, having refugees come into the school with them and needing to help acclimate and offer support and so it's so dynamic, the number of situations where children could just use someone to help them, you know, sift through what's going on how they feel, and then what to do from there.

Dr. Carole Lieberman  24:36  
Yes, absolutely. And making you know, just reassuring them that you are, are you keeping up with what's going on and that you will keep them safe, you will do your best to keep them safe and that there are lots of people out there, the government and so on, you know, who are doing their best to keep everybody safe? Yes. You know, I'm trying now to I've been sort of on a waiting list. I asked to go to Poland or Hungary or some country near Ukraine to bring my book to bring like over 100 copies of my book to read to the refugees. But there is so much red tape. But I am I think I am in the process of being vetted right now. And I hope it goes through.

Lindsay Miller  25:24  
Yeah, I hope that too, I really let I'm grateful we can end on that note, because I think what you said about creating meaning and helping in some way is so key to helping kids feel empowered, in a time when it would be easy to feel victimized and helpless, and giving them some way to take action. I know, I felt that myself, our local or state had a rally here at the Capitol shortly after the invasion, and so, you know, there were so little I could do watching and, you know, sending all my goodwill to the Ukraine, but I could go to that rally, you know, and so, we went to the rally, and there were so many great aspects of it, you know, and it was we were talking in the house, like, oh, there's kids who maybe need stuffed animals, or what could we, you know, how can we, how can we offer support and use this deep empathy that we're feeling. And for so many parents, I mean, like, we've been teaching our kids to have empathy, right, it's one of the skills we're trying to cultivate in them. But these last couple of years, it's empathy has been so heavy for, you know, for all of us, but especially for kids. So giving them a way to like, be empowered by their empathy and help because of their empathy, instead of just having to sit with it, that makes it makes so much sense. And I'm really glad you brought that up, and that you're living it, you know, in your own actions going over there.

Dr. Carole Lieberman  26:42  
And I hope I really, I'm hoping to have that opportunity. So but everybody can do everything, you know, it doesn't matter everybody can do when they can everybody can do something, you know.

Lindsay Miller  26:56  
And just finding getting creative and finding that thing. And I think that circles us back to the beginning in terms of values, right, and like, if one of your family values is empathy and compassion, you know, we can offer that no matter what's going on in the world, no matter where we're at, we can find some way if it's, you know, a monetary donation, if it's a note, if it's a, you know, an actual item, or, you know, the donation of time and energy to package something like we can, we can ground our kids in a time of like swirling confusion into that value, both from like an ideological perspective and our conversation. And then in our actions, you know, in terms of like, and even though we're one person, one person can make a difference. And this is how we're going to use use our understanding of empathy, our understanding of compassion, and our family value of, you know, getting out there and helping other people. This is what that looks like, in a crazy world.

Dr. Carole Lieberman  27:49  
Yes, and it really is, you know, I remember when I was a little kid, I wasn't four or five, but I don't know, you know, in elementary school, or in junior high school. When there were the telethons, you know, Jerry Lewis, I'm dating myself, now, I shouldn't have said, um, you know, I was, I was moved by the telephones. And I took a jar. And I went around to my neighborhoods, this is in New York City. And I went around to my neighbors, of course, it was safer back then to go around your neighbors and ring their doorbell. But still, in some neighborhoods, it's still safe today. But anyhow, and asking people to donate, you know, to put coins or whatever in the jar. And it just, you know, it was I, I'll never forget that because it made me feel like I was helping in some little way. So everybody can do that.

Lindsay Miller  28:43  
Yeah, well, and I love that you extended it out to your community, because I know in the times that we've done that here, just in our neighborhood, or like our faith community or school community, being able to connect with other people and realize, like, there's a lot of goodness, you know, even though it feels like there's a lot of awful swirling around, there's a whole lot of goodness. And when we can just take that first step to try to do good, and then see the way that other people respond. So often, I'm overwhelmed at the response. And people are like, Yes, please. We've been wanting to do something. Yes. Yes, that's right. So I'm glad you brought that up. Well, thank you so much for your time today. This has been such an insightful conversation. I think you've really highlighted some important and get simple things we can do. You know, to create a sense of of safety and help our kids feel grounded in what is a wild world right now? Yes. Well tell us where we can find you. Where can listeners find more about your work and your book if they want to explore that you know, to have start some conversations with their kids.

Dr. Carole Lieberman  29:47  
Even though this book is lions and tigers and terrorists on my head to protect your child in a time of terror. Terror isn't just radical Islamist terrorists. We are living in a time of terror right now. And I'm The first half of the book is for parents and teachers with like, lots of things 88 Things you can do with your child to build resilience. And then the second half is a picture book for kids, you know, with pictures, for example of a terrorist in the playground, you know, saying terrorist is like the bully in the playground. And 10 things that kids can do on their own to build resilience. And so you can find, you can find that you can, of course, you can find it on Amazon, but you can get an autographed by my website, which is terrorist therapist.com. And you can find also some other videos and so on that you would find helpful. And then also, well, that's the main and then you know, that's the main bond. Also Dr. carroll.com, Dr. C, AR o l e.com. And expert witness Forensic psychiatrist.com, one of these days together, one, one website, but I haven't really been

Lindsay Miller  31:08  
you've been a little busy. I don't blame you. Well, thank you again for being here, as always, and thanks for for the goodness that you put out into the world. Well, thank

Dr. Carole Lieberman  31:18  
you so much. It's always a pleasure.

Lindsay Miller  31:21  
Thanks so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed this one. I really appreciated her wisdom around just creating space, like asking questions and letting our kids know that we are a safe space for them to process anything they're thinking or feeling or wondering about. And I know that the more we create those spaces for them to process, the more they feel comfortable coming to us when things come up. And whether it's the things that we suggest or ask them about or whether it's other things that are on their mind or that they're experiencing, creating those safe spaces definitely reduces stress for everyone because when we know what they're going through, we can help them and we're not guessing and when they know they can count on us then they feel less stress because they're not alone. So if you know someone who would benefit from listening to this episode, please please please share it and then I would appreciate it if you would leave a review. You can go to ratethispodcast.com/thestressnanny to leave a review. And I would love to have you subscribe and listen along each week as we talk through ways to reduce your family stressful. Until next time!

Transcribed by https://otter.ai